JT your article was on reconstruction...Saddam had his demons but the infrastructure was good under him......you needd to know we are constructing what we destroyed and even that is a failure Most iraquis do not have relaiable electricity or water and cannot let their families attend schools or even be out shopping or moving about. We really have made their daily lifestyle unbearable and the financial cost is driving us into the ground.

What have we really accomplished yes saddam was a tyrant but we have murdered and destroyed almost as much as him while running up American debt and increasing terrorist and anti american sentimeny. Take the time to read Okhams report.The missed point was this invasion was also based on lies.

you truly are in a minority and a diehard for this invasion. That is your choice. By the way are you really a history teacher?

Did you read any of the links I put up? I read your stuff and was impressed you could at least return the favor. Only one quarter of the projects are being worked on? The military says otherwise.

Baghdad, Iraq - Coalition officials call it the "measles chart" -- a map of Iraq showing all the planned, in-progress and completed infrastructure projects that makes the country look like it has developed a case of the measles.
Green is good on the chart. That indicates completed projects, and most of the dots, triangles, squares and diamonds on the map are green. Yellow means the projects are started, and there is a scattering of those around the country. Red means "planned - not started," and there are some of those - mostly in Anbar province and in eastern and western Baghdad.

Oh, I know. the military is lying. Because they are part of the Bush conspiracy. I understand. That must be it! You still have not showed me where the military has lowered their recruitment goals. Would love to see it. Also 25 years of negelect under Saddam. We are not going to be able to turn that around over night. We are doing a great job though. The reason the media ignored the documents we found is because They want us to fail. The media has an extreme left wing bias and will do just about anything to see Bush fail. They only report the bad. Never the good.

Now I must educate Eli. This grows tiresome. Do you guys use any of the links I provide?

As of May 1, the division has 3,614 infrastructure projects planned, representing $11.3 billion. Another 3,206 projects have started for $10.1 billion. Nearly 2,600 projects have been completed for about $6 billion.

And it is working, she said. "Despite 25 years of neglect and a costly insurgency, Iraq's infrastructure is bouncing back and U.S. assistance is having a real impact on the lives of the Iraqi people," she said. In schools alone, U.S. funding has refurbished 831 schools. "We've taken children out of 'mud schools' and put them in modern. Clean buildings conducive to learning," Johnson said.

The projects have added 1,400 megawatts of electricity to the national grid, and the engineers have overseen 137 distribution projects.

If you describe taking all of the people's money and taking illagal money from the Franch and Germans to build palaces as good infrastructure then sure, it was great! In reality the people had no schools, very poor roads, and tourture rooms. Now they have schools and the oil production is at pre-war levels and will be up to 3 million barrels a day very soon.

No water and electricty huh?

Johnson spoke during a news conference here today. Her division's projects range from hospitals and schools to power plants and water and sewage treatment facilities


And that is just one division over there.

Am I really a history teacher? No I just made that up to feel impressive. Yes, I am really a history teacher and history tells us that Saddam broke every U.N resolution laid before him and ran his country into ruin for twenty five years and now we have to clean it up. Don't get me started on the Bush lied thing. AGain, the point is that media ignores every bit of encouraging news over their.

Of course I read them. I have to. It's due diligence.

There are many more articles just like these two, covering different time periods.

__________________
S.O.S. ------ United We Stand, Divided We Fall

That's because it's completely overshadowed by this administration incredibly bad policy. You need look no further than that for an explanation. It dominates the news with good reason.

But you are taking this to mean that otherwise well read well informed people don't realize, take note and aren't appreciative of what has been accomplished. That's not the at all. We're pissed because so many opportunities to do more have been missed by poor planning and bad assessment. On a regular basis. The true success' have been from the troops at the local level, doing a stellar job to get the job done to the very best of their ability.

If it were not for this administrations propensity for pie in the sky statements when confronted with new issues, I doubt the level of criticism would be as high. It is precisely that level of disconnect that fuels the rise of negative stories above the positive ones.

This isn't anything new. Human interest pieces at home rarely make front page center news. It would take a stunning success to make front and center page above the fold. Otherwise... success is more or less expected. Isn't it?

__________________
S.O.S. ------ United We Stand, Divided We Fall

So, if I'm reading this right, better than one third of the completed projects are... schools? Recipe for a school; several tons of brick, lumber, roofing, paint, desks/tables, chalk board, books. Hmmmmmm.

The problem with this would be what? The first step to setting up a country is to educate the people so they can run and care for the country themselves. An educated Iraq is a free Iraq. Also there is lot more to building a school than what you have described. You need electricty and water and computers and a variety of other things all of which are being worked on.



The projects have added 1,400 megawatts of electricity to the national grid, and the engineers have overseen 137 distribution projects.

Out of how many megawatts needed to ensure a constant, reliable power? This is incomplete non-objective information.


This would be enough (as the article said if you read it) to provide everyone with 12 hours a day. Remember this is a small country we are talking about. Yes, 12 hours seems low but that meets pre-war levels and will be availalbe to everyone. Not just to those Saddam liked. Also these numbers will go up as more stations are built.



You mean after we bombed them back to the stone age the first time? and again with the schools... and do torture rooms really count as infrastructure? Bad roads and no adequate schools... what a horrible place... oh wait, we those problems here in Michigan too.


How do you propose to fight a war without bombs? Yes collateral damage is unfortunate but unavoidable and we are repairing the damage. Also if Saddam had been straight with us and his people it wouldn't have happened. You obviously missed my sarcasim with the torture rooms. Yes again with the schools. They are essential.


No water and electricty huh?

Johnson spoke during a news conference here today. Her division's projects range from hospitals and schools to power plants and water and sewage treatment facilities

Yup, good job, those are definitely infrastructure issues. What else would you be working on?


Read the context clues there. I was responding to Eli's point that they didn't have water or electricity which they obviously do.


That's because it's completely overshadowed by this administration incredibly bad policy. You need look no further than that for an explanation. It dominates the news with good reason.
This isn't anything new. Human interest pieces at home rarely make front page center news. It would take a stunning success to make front and center page above the fold. Otherwise... success is more or less expected. Isn't it?

First you say that things are not going well and that re-building is not working. Then you say that the sucess we have over there is expected. So which is it? We are not winning and are not rebuilding or we are doing well but that is expected? The reason that the media doesn't report on the rebuilding is because that would make the administration look good. The media doesn't want that. The media constantly rams the fact that people are dying over there and taht we have spent billions. They don't tell you what the people are dying for or where the money is spent. It is irresponsible and bias. They ignore the good and shove the bad in your. If the media was repsonisble they would give equal time to both good and bad.

First, I did tead the article, but I know many who view this thread will not, so if you had the qualifiying info about how much electricity is needed along with how much is being produced you should have included it, for the sake of avioding bias.

Considering what our original reconstruction goals were (set by the Bushies) and what they have actually turned out to be... it hasn't gone well. And what successes we have had are absolutely expected.

There is NO way to make this adminitration look good. The Bushies have become the instrument of their own undoing, not the media.

Good news doesn't make it above the fold domestically, why would such a small piece get special treatment?

While schools are important, you are talking about next generational effects. This should have been an NGO issue or at least one of the last things tackled. There are far more immediate and urgent matters to attend to.

My position is very clear... good job on the work that has been completed... but if you're expecting a party... show me something to get excited about.

Again, the reason this story didnt rate is because there wasn't much there in the face of much bigger and ongoing concerns domestically and abroad.

And I'm done with this thread... question answered... it's all yours

__________________
S.O.S. ------ United We Stand, Divided We Fall

If the information I have shown you hasn't convinced you then nothing will.

What exactly are you trying to convince me of?

That we are going to accomplish 25% of our reconstructions goals before we end reconstruction?
That something is better than nothing?
That we have made headway in establishing government and training Iraqi military?

Agreed

Are you trying to convince me that this one letter from a demoralized insurgent is proof that we are winning? Not gonna happen. I will admit we aren't loosing, and we are making headway. But you just don't get it... In the face of this monumental ongoing clusterfuck of a "war", one stupid letter is not going to make us all fall to our knees in appreciation of the fantstic job our government has done in Iraq.

Gimme a break

__________________
S.O.S. ------ United We Stand, Divided We Fall

I thought you were done with this thread? Look at the measles map. It is mostly green. Very little red. Also it is not our job to completely rebuild the country. It is job to jump start and show them how. I don't expect the letter to make you fall to your knees but I at least expect the media to report it. They didn't.