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Fear leads to Anger...Anger leads to Hate...Hate leads to Suffering.

This is enough for me to go to war!
http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?ei...ddam%2Btorture
http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?ei...ddam%2Btorture
http://www.state.gov/secretary/forme...2003/17300.htm
http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?p=...s%26ei%3DUTF-8

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"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem." Ronald Reagan
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I find it very interesting that you quote Reagan in your signature, and yet are an Iraq war hawk. Reagan, the king of containment. The USSR violated not just numerous UN sanctions but NATO pacts and accords as well. Torture? Stalin killed 20 million of his own people, I think there might have been a bit of torturing going on ever since... hmmm... yeah, pretty sure about that one. Should we have gone to war with Russia? How about Cuba? N. Korea? Every country in the middle east, including Israel?

Containment works, especially when they are NOT a direct threat to us. Containment was the right path with Iraq. Reagan had it right, Bush Sr. had it right. Bush Lite... not so much.

I'll tell ya... a guiding philosophy on the playground for me when growing up was "never throw the first punch". I took this philosophy from my grandparents, who took it from the extreme pride my family has for the founding principles of this country. It's a profound source of pride to be able to say that you are not an aggressor, to know that you are big enough to take a stand and take a punch. And if it should come to a fight, that you have the moral high ground from which to righteously kick they're ass.

That is not what happened here. Far from it. There's no pride in knocking down the little shit with a chip on his shoulder. The guiding philosophy of the Neo-Cons is the bully approach. Knock down anyone that looks like they might be a threat. It's in their own manifesto "rebuilding America's Defenses". It takes no interpretation or spin to understand what that document is saying. Yet so many that still support the Cheney Cabal have never read it.

We cannot use justifications like torture, wholesale killing of citizens, and dictatorial regimes to go to war. We have looked the other way far too many times where other, less resource endowed countries are concerned. That crap just doesn't hold up under scrutiny. It's fine for intervention, to quell violence in a region, with UN support... but these are not valid justifications for war, not for the USA. These are not valid justifications to empty our treasury, they are not valid justifications for sending our most precious resource, our children into harms way with no idea of how to bring them home.

Containment works. We have almost a hundred years of success with containment. It has worked every time in the past. War, not such a good track record.

So you can beat the war drums if you like, talk tough about kicking so and so's ass... but respect lies in restraint, caution, deliberation and acting with blinding decisiveness should the occasion present itself... but we should NEVER go looking for a fight.

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S.O.S. ------ United We Stand, Divided We Fall

[quote=OkhamsRazor;89023]
We cannot use justifications like torture, wholesale killing of citizens, and dictatorial regimes to go to war. We have looked the other way far too many times where other, less resource endowed countries are concerned. That crap just doesn't hold up under scrutiny. It's fine for intervention, to quell violence in a region, with UN support... but these are not valid justifications for war, not for the USA. These are not valid justifications to empty our treasury, they are not valid justifications for sending our most precious resource, our children into harms way with no idea of how to bring them home. QUOTE]


There is no better reason to go to war than to prevent people like saddam frm doing what he has done! We did in kosovo! But that must be the exception for you.

Remember that our children that we sent to war "as you say" know exactly what they enlisted to do and they know about bushes policy! They know they are going to Iraq and they know what for. An enlistment is 4 years long and the war has lasted longer than 4 years, That means if they dont believe in the war then they have gotten out by now! The ones who enlist now in our 100% VOLINTEER MILITARY know where they are going. You dont speak for them! They are obviously speaking for themselves! And they have spoken! Enlistments are not down!

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"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem." Ronald Reagan
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Care to back that up with some credible evidence? For most of the soldiers I know, joining the military had nothing to do with policies, who we were fighting or anything of the like. Most had a lifelong love of all things military, had long family history with the military, or are from neighborhoods nearly as bad a Iraq.

But these are just my opinions. Also, if you want to go to war for those reasons, be consistent and go to war to protect all people under leaders like Saddam. There are far more brutal regimes than his on the planet. No matter how you cut it, that's a poor justification. And not at all the reason the Cheney Cabal removed him from power. Cheney himself said so. It's hogwash boy, malarkey, spurious, BULLSHIT.

Again, Reagan and Bush Sr proved that containment is in the USA's best interest. That's all I was pointing out.

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S.O.S. ------ United We Stand, Divided We Fall

I’ll agree with that Okham. I don’t think that people sign up for the military so much for the policy aspect as they do for the love of country. Whether you agree with the war in Iraq or not, I must respect those who enlist to serve this country regardless of policy. Then again I’ve never enlisted so that’s just my outside perspective.

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"Those who stand for nothing fall for anything." Alexander Hamilton

The price good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men.
Plato

If they didnt want to fight the war in iraq then they wouldent have sighned up! Dont try to twist it any other way!

Their are many brutal regimes and that doesent make us wrong in removing saddam. after all the liberals voted for it too!

US Senators who voted YES to authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq:

Allard, Wayne (R-CO)
Allen, George (R-VA)
Baucus, Max (D-MT)
Bayh, Evan (D-IN)
Bennett, Robert (R-UT)
Biden, Joseph (D-DE)
Bond, Christopher (R-MO)
Breaux, John (D-LA)
Brownback, Sam (R-KS)
Bunning, Jim (R-KY)
Burns, Conrad (R-MT)
Campbell, Ben (R-CO)
Cantwell, Maria (D-WA)
Carnahan, Jean (D-MO)
Carper, Thomas (D-DE)
Cleland, Max (D-GA)
Clinton, Hillary (D-NY)
Cochran, Thad (R-MS)
Collins, Susan (R-ME)
Craig, Larry (R-ID)
Crapo, Michael (R-ID)
Daschle, Tom (D-SD)
DeWine, Mike (R-OH)
Dodd, Christopher (D-CT)
Domenici, Pete (R-NM)
Dorgan, Byron (D-ND)
Edwards, John (D-NC)
Ensign, John (R-NV)
Enzi, Michael (R-WY)
Feinstein, Dianne (D-CA)
Fitzgerald, Peter (R-IL)
Frist, Bill (R-TN)
Gramm, Phil (R-TX)
Grassley, Chuck (R-IA)
Gregg, Judd (R-NH)
Hagel, Chuck (R-NE)
Harkin, Tom (D-IA)
Hatch, Orrin (R-UT)
Helms, Jesse (R-NC)
Hollings, Ernest (D-SC)
Hutchinson, Tim (R-AR)
Hutchison, Kay (R-TX)
Inhofe, James (R-OK)
Johnson, Tim (D-SD)
Kerry, John (D-MA)
Kohl, Herb (D-WI)
Kyl, Jon (R-AZ)
Landrieu, Mary (D-LA)
Lieberman, Joseph (D-CT)
Lincoln, Blanche (D-AR)
Lott, Trent (R-MS)
Lugar, Richard (R-IN)
McCain, John (R-AZ)
McConnell, Mitch (R-KY)
Miller, Zell (D-GA)
Murkowski, Lisa (R-AK)
Nelson, Bill (D-FL)
Nelson, Ben (D-NE)
Nickles, Don (R-OK)
Reid, Harry (D-NV)
Roberts, Pat (R-KS)
Rockefeller, John (D-WV)
Santorum, Rick (R-PA)
Schumer, Charles (D-NY)
Sessions, Jeff (R-AL)
Shelby, Richard (R-AL)
Smith, Robert (R-NH)
Smith, Gordon (R-OR)
Snowe, Olympia (R-ME)
Specter, Arlen (R-PA)
Stevens, Ted (R-AK)
Thomas, Craig (R-WY)
Thompson, Fred (R-TN)
Thurmond, Strom (R-SC)
Torricelli, Robert (D-NJ)
Voinovich, George (R-OH)
Warner, John (R-VA)

http://www.freedomagenda.com/iraq/wmd_quotes.html

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"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem." Ronald Reagan
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Hey General Smitty (and two time medal of honor winner ) since you love war and have a vast amount of experince on the ground in Iraq,

Can you share with us what type of victory there will be in Iraq:

Will there be a Military Victory in Iraq?

or

Will there be a Diplomatic Victory in Iraq?

or

Do you hope and pray for Neither b/c you like Blowing Shit Up, chaos and endless killing?

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AMERICA LAND OF THE FREE HOME OF THE BRAVE--BECAUSE OF OUR CONSTITUTION.

I dont think victory can exist without one or the other! Who said I loved war?

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"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem." Ronald Reagan
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Explain further, why do you feel this way especially given your endless vast amount of experience and knowlege on the ground in Iraq?

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AMERICA LAND OF THE FREE HOME OF THE BRAVE--BECAUSE OF OUR CONSTITUTION.