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Old 12-18-2006, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by futtbucker View Post
I don't want to butt in, but yea, they are pretty much united hand in hand. When was the last time a Kurd was involved in the fights? Other than the sect violence that any country will get (Bloods vs. Crips, to name one), there isn't much violence really between the Sunnis and the Shiites. I've read Smitty's and Mideaster's posts, and I kind of see it their view, if they were both actually there. I think, like they said, outside of Baghdad, there isn't any real riots anywhere else. Here's what I think the insurgents are trying to do:

Kill a bunch of Sunnis, blame it on the Shiites... Then kill a bunch of Shiites, blame it on the Sunnis. And pretty much leave the Kurds alone
You are 100% correct. Insergents are betting on creating a civil war by sparking a secterian conflict. Just like you said. one day they attack sunni's the next day they attack Shia.
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Old 12-18-2006, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by futtbucker View Post
I don't want to butt in, but yea, they are pretty much united hand in hand. When was the last time a Kurd was involved in the fights? Other than the sect violence that any country will get (Bloods vs. Crips, to name one), there isn't much violence really between the Sunnis and the Shiites. I've read Smitty's and Mideaster's posts, and I kind of see it their view, if they were both actually there. I think, like they said, outside of Baghdad, there isn't any real riots anywhere else. Here's what I think the insurgents are trying to do:

Kill a bunch of Sunnis, blame it on the Shiites... Then kill a bunch of Shiites, blame it on the Sunnis. And pretty much leave the Kurds alone
Excellent comment, futtbucker!

Most of the Sunnis in Iraq aren't even Arab; They're Kurd. And I don't see much fighting between the Kurds and the Arabs, so how can one say that there is "a civil war" between Sunnis and Shi'as?
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2006, 04:38 PM
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Well, I am willing to say the idea of not completely disarming all Iraqis was a mistake but to extend that to the claims that you making regarding the aministration that they just jumped into the war without any forethought at all is really pushing it. To me that smacks of just "We hate Bush" than rational debate.
I have not mentioned GWB and he did not make those decisions quite frankly, that is pretty well documented. In fact at the first big post 9/11 meeting he had with the 'inside guys' he was not going to invade Iraq, and I do believe that. He was convinced by others when going around the table to do this, Bush actually came into the meeting more focused on Bin Laden and what was going to be done in Afghanistan. Bottom line is that his family does have a relationship with the Bin Laden family and that was on the table for him too.

Now, I do blame him for being so easily swayed to that side and taking the 'eye off the ball' (ie Bin Laden). I am not giving you "I hate Bush" rhetoric here and the decision making is not monolithic as per GWB sitting down at his White House desk and pulling all this out of thin air by himself. Like him or not the guy is a salesman/CEO type that had to sell the ideas of doing any military action to the 'investors' (voters and congress). He did not come up with this and my gripes have been with Cheney and Rumsfled, to lay this all on with "I hate Bush" thinking is not very good logic.
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Old 12-18-2006, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by futtbucker View Post
I don't want to butt in, but yea, they are pretty much united hand in hand. When was the last time a Kurd was involved in the fights?
Extremist Kurds are focused in the north against the Turks; Turkey is having a great deal of trouble with this violence. While Saddam was in power it was not as bad actually. American based forces in Turkey are trying to help with this. Turks and Kurds do not necessarily get along. We have a contengent of Turkish students here that I have talked to several times about this, thier view ont he whole thing is rather interesting.
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Old 12-18-2006, 04:54 PM
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Originally Posted by cat's meow View Post
Extremist Kurds are focused in the north against the Turks; Turkey is having a great deal of trouble with this violence. While Saddam was in power it was not as bad actually. American based forces in Turkey are trying to help with this. Turks and Kurds do not necessarily get along. We have a contengent of Turkish students here that I have talked to several times about this, thier view ont he whole thing is rather interesting.
none gets along with the turks. They have shit(and i do mean shit) on allote of people over there history.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2006, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by futtbucker View Post
I don't want to butt in, but yea, they are pretty much united hand in hand. When was the last time a Kurd was involved in the fights? Other than the sect violence that any country will get (Bloods vs. Crips, to name one), there isn't much violence really between the Sunnis and the Shiites. I've read Smitty's and Mideaster's posts, and I kind of see it their view, if they were both actually there. I think, like they said, outside of Baghdad, there isn't any real riots anywhere else. Here's what I think the insurgents are trying to do:

Kill a bunch of Sunnis, blame it on the Shiites... Then kill a bunch of Shiites, blame it on the Sunnis. And pretty much leave the Kurds alone
Don't you mean "Futt" in? Yea hand in hand, Brothers United.

Shiite-Sunni Violence Kills Dozens in Iraq
Masked Shiite gunmen, hunting Sunnis, massacre 41 in Baghdad; blast near Shiite Mosque kills 17

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Jul. 10, 2006
By ROBERT H. REID Associated Press Writer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(AP)



(AP) Masked Shiite gunmen roamed through west Baghdad's Jihad neighborhood Sunday, dragging Sunnis from their cars, picking them out on the street and killing them in a rampage that police said killed 41 people in a dramatic escalation of sectarian violence.

Hours later, two car bombs exploded near a Shiite mosque in the city's north, killing 17 people and wounding 38 in what appeared to be a reprisal attack, police said.

On Monday, two car bombs exploded nearly simultaneously in a Shiite area of Baghdad on Monday, killing at least seven people and wounding 17, police and hospital officials said.

The first bomb struck a car repair shop on the edge of the Shiite slum of Sadr City, wounding at least six people, police Lt. Bilal Ali said.

A suicide car bomber then drove into the crowd that had gathered at the scene, killing seven people and wounding 11, according to officials from two hospitals that received the victims.

Meanwhile, black-clad Shiite militiamen manned checkpoints on roads into most major Shiite neighborhoods to guard against revenge attacks, as scattered clashes occurred across the Iraqi capital.

Sunni leaders expressed outrage over the killings, and President Jalal Talabani, a Kurd, appealed for calm, warning that the nation stood "in front of a dangerous precipice."

Presidential security adviser Wafiq al-Samaraie told Al-Jazeera television that "we are at the gates of civil war" unless "exceptional measures" are taken.

A senior government official, Haidar Majid, contested the police figures, saying late Sunday that only nine people died in Jihad. Police Lt. Mohammed Khayoun insisted the figure of 41 was correct _ with 24 bodies taken to Yarmouk hospital and 17 to the city morgue. There was no way to reconcile the discrepancy.

Regardless, the brazen attack was likely to further enflame Shiite-Sunni tensions and undermine public confidence in Iraq's new unity government. It also raises new questions about the effectiveness of the Iraqi police and army to curb sectarian violence in the capital.

The trouble started about 10 a.m. when several carloads of gunmen drove into the Jihad area along the main road to Baghdad International Airport, police and witnesses said. The gunmen stopped cars, checked passengers' identification cards and shot dead those with Sunni names.

Masked gunmen wearing black clothes roamed the streets, abducting Sunnis whose bodies were found later scattered throughout the religiously mixed neighborhood, an Interior Ministry official said. He spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to media.

U.S. and Iraqi forces sealed off the area, and residents said American troops using loudspeakers announced a two-day curfew. Black smoke from burning tires wafted through the streets.

Another policeman, Lt. Maitham Abdul-Razzaq, also said 41 bodies had been collected and taken to hospitals. Some Sunni clerics put the death toll at more than 50 in Jihad, a once prosperous neighborhood of handsome villas owned by officials of Saddam Hussein's security services.

Residents contacted by telephone told of gunmen systematically rounding up and massacring Sunni men.

A Shiite shopkeeper said he saw heavily armed men pull four people out of a car, blindfold them and force them to stand to the side while they grabbed five others out of a minivan.

"After ten minutes, the gunmen took the nine people to a place a few meters (yards) away from the market and opened fire on them," Saad Jawad al-Azzawi said.

Wissam Mohammad al-Ani, a Sunni, said three gunmen stopped him as he was talking toward a bus stop and demanded his identification. They let him go after he produced a fake ID with a Shiite name, but they seized two young men standing nearby.

Police and Shiite leaders speculated the rampage was carried out in retaliation for a Saturday night car bombing at a Shiite mosque that killed two people and wounded nine.

Clashes also broke out between gunmen and Iraqi police in at least three neighborhoods across the capital, police and residents said. Three Shiite militiamen were killed in fighting with security forces in one of them, police said.

The spokesman for a Sunni clerical association, Mohammed Beshar al-Faydhi, blamed the Jihad attack on the Mahdi Army militia, led by radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. Al-Faydhi told Al-Jazeera television that he had documents to prove his allegation.

Al-Sadr denied responsibility and called on both Shiites and Sunnis to "join hands for the sake of Iraq's independence and stability." He assured Vice President Tariq al-Hashimi, leader of the largest Sunni Arab party, that he would punish any of his militiamen if they were involved.

Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, a Shiite, has promised to disband Shiite militias and other armed groups, which are blamed for much of the sectarian violence. On Friday, Iraqi troops backed by U.S. jets raided a Shiite militia stronghold in Baghdad's Sadr City neighborhood, killing and wounding dozens of people.

But militias have flourished in large part because of the inability of the police, the Iraqi army and coalition forces to guarantee security. Many in the Shiite majority believe the militias are their only protection against Sunni extremists such as al-Qaida in Iraq, responsible for many car bombings and suicide attacks against Shiite civilians.

The violence is likely to complicate U.S. and Iraqi efforts to encourage disaffected Sunnis to abandon the Sunni-dominated insurgency and join mainstream politics so U.S. troops can begin to go home.

Deputy Prime Minister Salam al-Zubaie, a Sunni, described the Jihad attack as "a real and ugly massacre," and blamed Iraqi security forces, which are widely believed to have been infiltrated by Shiite militias.

"There are officers who instead of being in charge should be questioned and referred to judicial authorities," al-Zubaie told Al-Jazeera TV. "Jihad is witnessing a catastrophic crime."

The prime minister's office quickly distanced itself from al-Zubaie's comments, saying in a statement that they "do not represent the government's point of view."

Sunni politician Alaa Maki also blamed Shiite extremists, claiming they were out to wipe out the Sunni Arab minority.

"We demand the presidency, the prime minister and the parliament stand against this agenda," Maki said. "The situation is very serious. If it deteriorates, all of us will be losers."

Also Sunday, an American soldier died in a "non-combat related incident," the U.S. command said without giving further details.

In the western city of Ramadi, a car bomb exploded next to a U.S. convoy, wounding four American soldiers, the military said. The attack occurred as the convoy headed to the government center in the city, an insurgent hotbed 70 miles west of Baghdad.


-http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/10/ap/world/mainD8IP0G2G1.shtml
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2006, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by gixaholic View Post
You are 100% correct. Insergents are betting on creating a civil war by sparking a secterian conflict. Just like you said. one day they attack sunni's the next day they attack Shia.
America had her civil war to iron out her differences---why can't the Iraqi's have their civil war as well!!!
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2006, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by crowonapost View Post
From wikipedia,

A civil war is a war in which parties within the same culture, society or nationality fight against each other for the control of political power. Political scientists use two criteria: the warring groups must be from the same country and fighting for control of the political center, control over a separatist state or to force a major change in policy. The second criterion is that at least 1,000 people must have been killed in total, with at least 100 from each side..[1]

this is why,

a conservative military point of view.

Powell: 'We Are Losing' in Iraq
http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/IraqCovera...2733112&page=1
ACCORDING TO CROWN WE ARE AT CIVAL WAR IN THE US! HOPE YOU KEPT YOUR CONFEDERATE MONEY BOYS!!
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Old 12-18-2006, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Spitty View Post
So you are telling us that Sunni, Shiite and Kurds are united hand in hand. When the Americans leave they will fight side by side for a common goal. Maybe you are in denial, what are you sunni or shiite?

YOUR AN IDIOT SPITTY. HOW WILL YOU DISCREDIT AN NATIVE IRAQI. MIDEASTER IS FRON IRAQ! SEE THAT IS HOW LIBERAL YOU ARE! THE TRUTH IS STAIRING YOU RIGHT IN THE FACE AND YOU REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEGE IT! YOUR A LOST CAUSE! IT PROVES YOU HAVE NO REASON!
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 12-18-2006, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Spitty View Post
Don't you mean "Futt" in? Yea hand in hand, Brothers United.

Shiite-Sunni Violence Kills Dozens in Iraq
Masked Shiite gunmen, hunting Sunnis, massacre 41 in Baghdad; blast near Shiite Mosque kills 17

BAGHDAD, Iraq, Jul. 10, 2006
By ROBERT H. REID Associated Press Writer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(AP)



(AP) Masked Shiite gunmen roamed through west Baghdad's Jihad neighborhood Sunday, dragging Sunnis from their cars, picking them out on the street and killing them in a rampage that police said killed 41 people in a dramatic escalation of sectarian violence.

Hours later, two car bombs exploded near a Shiite mosque in the city's north, killing 17 people and wounding 38 in what appeared to be a reprisal attack, police said.

On Monday, two car bombs exploded nearly simultaneously in a Shiite area of Baghdad on Monday, killing at least seven people and wounding 17, police and hospital officials said.

The first bomb struck a car repair shop on the edge of the Shiite slum of Sadr City, wounding at least six people, police Lt. Bilal Ali said.

A suicide car bomber then drove into the crowd that had gathered at the scene, killing seven people and wounding 11, according to officials from two hospitals that received the victims.

Meanwhile, black-clad Shiite militiamen manned checkpoints on roads into most major Shiite neighborhoods to guard against revenge attacks, as scattered clashes occurred across the Iraqi capital.

Sunni leaders expressed outrage over the killings, and President Jalal Talabani, a Kurd, appealed for calm, warning that the nation stood "in front of a dangerous precipice."

Presidential security adviser Wafiq al-Samaraie told Al-Jazeera television that "we are at the gates of civil war" unless "exceptional measures" are taken.

A senior government official, Haidar Majid, contested the police figures, saying late Sunday that only nine people died in Jihad. Police Lt. Mohammed Khayoun insisted the figure of 41 was correct _ with 24 bodies taken to Yarmouk hospital and 17 to the city morgue. There was no way to reconcile the discrepancy.

Regardless, the brazen attack was likely to further enflame Shiite-Sunni tensions and undermine public confidence in Iraq's new unity government. It also raises new questions about the effectiveness of the Iraqi police and army to curb sectarian violence in the capital.

The trouble started about 10 a.m. when several carloads of gunmen drove into the Jihad area along the main road to Baghdad International Airport, police and witnesses said. The gunmen stopped cars, checked passengers' identification cards and shot dead those with Sunni names.

Masked gunmen wearing black clothes roamed the streets, abducting Sunnis whose bodies were found later scattered throughout the religiously mixed neighborhood, an Interior Ministry official said. He spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to media.

U.S. and Iraqi forces sealed off the area, and residents said American troops using loudspeakers announced a two-day curfew. Black smoke from burning tires wafted through the streets.

Another policeman, Lt. Maitham Abdul-Razzaq, also said 41 bodies had been collected and taken to hospitals. Some Sunni clerics put the death toll at more than 50 in Jihad, a once prosperous neighborhood of handsome villas owned by officials of Saddam Hussein's security services.

Residents contacted by telephone told of gunmen systematically rounding up and massacring Sunni men.

A Shiite shopkeeper said he saw heavily armed men pull four people out of a car, blindfold them and force them to stand to the side while they grabbed five others out of a minivan.

"After ten minutes, the gunmen took the nine people to a place a few meters (yards) away from the market and opened fire on them," Saad Jawad al-Azzawi said.

Wissam Mohammad al-Ani, a Sunni, said three gunmen stopped him as he was talking toward a bus stop and demanded his identification. They let him go after he produced a fake ID with a Shiite name, but they seized two young men standing nearby.

Police and Shiite leaders speculated the rampage was carried out in retaliation for a Saturday night car bombing at a Shiite mosque that killed two people and wounded nine.

Clashes also broke out between gunmen and Iraqi police in at least three neighborhoods across the capital, police and residents said. Three Shiite militiamen were killed in fighting with security forces in one of them, police said.

The spokesman for a Sunni clerical association, Mohammed Beshar al-Faydhi, blamed the Jihad attack on the Mahdi Army militia, led by radical Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. Al-Faydhi told Al-Jazeera television that he had documents to prove his allegation.

Al-Sadr denied responsibility and called on both Shiites and Sunnis to "join hands for the sake of Iraq's independence and stability." He assured Vice President Tariq al-Hashimi, leader of the largest Sunni Arab party, that he would punish any of his militiamen if they were involved.

Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, a Shiite, has promised to disband Shiite militias and other armed groups, which are blamed for much of the sectarian violence. On Friday, Iraqi troops backed by U.S. jets raided a Shiite militia stronghold in Baghdad's Sadr City neighborhood, killing and wounding dozens of people.

But militias have flourished in large part because of the inability of the police, the Iraqi army and coalition forces to guarantee security. Many in the Shiite majority believe the militias are their only protection against Sunni extremists such as al-Qaida in Iraq, responsible for many car bombings and suicide attacks against Shiite civilians.

The violence is likely to complicate U.S. and Iraqi efforts to encourage disaffected Sunnis to abandon the Sunni-dominated insurgency and join mainstream politics so U.S. troops can begin to go home.

Deputy Prime Minister Salam al-Zubaie, a Sunni, described the Jihad attack as "a real and ugly massacre," and blamed Iraqi security forces, which are widely believed to have been infiltrated by Shiite militias.

"There are officers who instead of being in charge should be questioned and referred to judicial authorities," al-Zubaie told Al-Jazeera TV. "Jihad is witnessing a catastrophic crime."

The prime minister's office quickly distanced itself from al-Zubaie's comments, saying in a statement that they "do not represent the government's point of view."

Sunni politician Alaa Maki also blamed Shiite extremists, claiming they were out to wipe out the Sunni Arab minority.

"We demand the presidency, the prime minister and the parliament stand against this agenda," Maki said. "The situation is very serious. If it deteriorates, all of us will be losers."

Also Sunday, an American soldier died in a "non-combat related incident," the U.S. command said without giving further details.

In the western city of Ramadi, a car bomb exploded next to a U.S. convoy, wounding four American soldiers, the military said. The attack occurred as the convoy headed to the government center in the city, an insurgent hotbed 70 miles west of Baghdad.


-http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/10/ap/world/mainD8IP0G2G1.shtml
OK SPITTY! YOU REFERENCE A LIBERAL AP WHO IS CLAIMING CIVAL WAR? SEE SPITTY. I HAVE BEEN TO IRAQ AND MIDEASTER IS FROM IRAQ AND JUST RETURNED FROM VACATION THERE! WE KNOW THE TRUTH AND WE KNOW THE LIES THE PRESS PUTS OUT! BUT YOU LOOK AT A PICE OF PAPER ANT TAKE IT TO BE TRUE ONLY BECAUSE IT SUPPORTS YOUR ARGUMENT! YOU DONT KNOW THAT INSERGENTS ARE BOMBING SUNNI AND SHIIA MOSQUES AND LEAVING PROPAGANDA ALL OVER THE PLACE TO BLAME IT ON CIVAL WAR! YOU ALSO FORGET THAT THEY WEAR MASKS WHEN THEY DO IT! THEY ARE TRYING TO INCITE A CIVAL WAR AND THEY HAVE FAILED THUS FAR. WHAT IS IT WITH YOU THAT YOU CANT TAKE THE TRUTH. A MARINE AND AN IRAQI IS TELLING YOU THERE IS NO CIVAL WAR YET YOU ARE TO PROUD TO DROP YOUR LIBERAL BULLSHIT PRIDE! YOUR USLESS. YOU CARE MORE ABOUT LIBERALS GETTING IN POWER NO MATTER IF THEY ARE RIGHT OR WRONG! YOU HAVE NO CREDIT HERE ANY MORE! YOU ARE JUST WASTING SPACE. YOUR WORDS HAVE NO USE!
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