What would you do now? (thread inspired by jj)

[George O Well]

"So the path would be brutal oppression?"

>>>That's the ONLY path. Wait - there is one other path. All out civil war with thousands of mangled babies.

[jimmyjude]

Originally Posted by George O Well

I just don't see 3 GIs getting blown up each day to prop up a bunch of folks who won't commit. You KNOW that army and police force are in it for the paycheck only.

Yawn. Sigh.

[Roswell]

"yawn, sigh"

You need to get some serious help! That's what you have to say about GI's getting killed!

[jimmyjude]

Yawn sigh.

[PhilosopherWarrior]

Originally Posted by Cordelier

You know what? Love him or hate him - and I think most people are on the hate side - you've got to hand it to him, Saddam knew what he was doing while he was in power... he was able to stay in power for about 30 years and rule a ethnically and religiously diverse country with an iron hand.?

..This is a similar opinion to "Hitler was a bad guy, but..."..
Pick a side.. Either Police-State collectives of a socialist-democratic slant
( a la' Hitler's Germany,Stalin's Soviet Union,Tung's ChiCom Republic,etc)
are GOOD { and you also oppose capitaist democracies }
OR they are an evil scourge, like disease, and we must do right
by our fellow humans.
Are you saying that POWER is the only thing to respect?

Originally Posted by Cordelier

We've tried parliamentary democracy there and it isn't working - the country is degenerating under their feet and all the democratically-elected representatives can do is quibble about who gets what share of power. Maybe the best course of action is to take a lesson from Saddam... find someone who can grasp the reins and power and give all Iraqis someone to rally around..

You repeat your underlying admiration for dictatorship,and a
terrorized and cowed populace.
Perhaps you are aware that "artificial" states that have
NO binding social/value "glue" except PC slogans and
equalitarian platitudes ALWAYS degenerates into rule of force.
What made America's unifying social/value "glue'?
Perhaps rather than a pre-fab euro-style gov't we should encourage
the rise of individual economic power-blocs.
Iraqi's who make money giving Iraqi's what they need to go to work , etc.
You know, more an American-style economy.
But then again,... the world ( or at least it's media) whines
we are trying to "tell them what to do."
{ rather like recalcitrant children, no?}
Clearly, the changes we have brought to the region in the last fifty years
( yes, we really HAVE been the global policeman since WWII.)
HAVE been very trying for the old style religious warlord dictators.
OBVIOUSLY this was a clash of civilizations the West wants accomplished peacefully.
But War happens from the desperate insecure side.. and
make no mistake readers,
We are in a struggle that ( like the crusades in the past ) IS generational.
We are part of a struggle that WILL go on for this century..
At least as long as we cannot articulate WHY America; and it's Capitalist/individualist philosophy is the more progressive ( and successful)
model for human societies.
{ Note, people, I am not an advocate of ALL of America's corporate/gov't policies and actions
, and I really have deep criticisms and analyses
of the West and the US,..
but comparatively I know which side I am on..}
The US must articulate for our own people as well as the "occupied territories", and the world, just what ARE the essential freedoms that America as a civilzation embody.
We must encourage that kind of individual actions for their own individual benfit..i.e. entrepeneurism.
We must encourage and support the governments that believe in an impartial, secular, and dedicated judiciary.
The kind of men and women who we need in representative positions in America, and everywhere, must NOT be typical Ivy-League trained academics and lawyers. These are already people taught the subjective victim-oriented disciplines of Marxist academia.. We need the experience of real managers and engineers.
These are people who will not be PC and will not make
bloodless, easy decisions. Some will get rich and influential.
This IS as it should be.
This IS the model to build a proud and robust
representative democratic citizenry.

Originally Posted by Cordelier

Security and prosperity are the fertile ground that democracy needs to take root. Hell, even during the American Revolution, the Founding Fathers waited until the fighting was over before they set about writing a Constitution and electing their Government. So why are we putting the cart before the horse in Iraq?.

solly cholly, A government WAS set up BY the revolutionaries. THERE had been widespread rhetoric and activism. The Congress was a constant hamstring to military ( i.e. GWashington's) needs.
Adversity and principles overcomes the fears of risk and death. Thirty
years in a soviet-style police state does NOT foster the proud individual who stands up AND DOES THE RIGHT THING.
And yet, every day there really are unsung Iraqi's ( muslims all) who get up in the morning and risk their families lives to rebuild a society. Schools and hospitals, yes. But also bread distributors, and a/c repair companies, innovative sellers of things Iraqis will want.
They ARE out there. And they are the targets of the desperate criminal thugs.
Doctors and businessmen get killed there.
When THOSE people shoot back, and inform on the criminals , then their society will reform.
Until then we need to have a superlative ( and covert ) intel/police/judicial system to surgically remove the cancerous criminal elements.
( including religious monsters.)


So we could do what the enemy wants, ( and you want too, Cordie..)
which is to let someone else ACT, and we can feel guilty and superior
all at the same time.
Like in the Sudan, right?
You all have expressed a number of contradictory and irrational opinions.
The elements of truth are connected wrong, and critical influences
are unaccounted for. These are simplistic and emotionally
tainted conclusions,Cordie; Ocham-;Ididnot-;gansta-; and do not serve America well.
Sure, there are much deeper criticisms of our domestic policies.
But NOT internationally..
Sure, we have serious debates about factions and a "mixed-economy"..
But NOT internationally..

What do we do in the semi-future?
Stay in the middle-East, continue to threaten ALL of the throwback primitive power factions there, until the clerics and the tribal leaders are deposed and disgraced.
If we do it efficiently, we could "de-nazify" the region in twenty or thirty years.
( by the way, you ARE aware that
US political/military occupation of Germany
continues TO THIS DAY,
RIGHT?)
If we let the propaganda war go on ( letting the enemy win) we will have a lot of fires burning,
( which still could be handled with efficient and COVERT means).
This applies politically in Africa and Asia.
Some judicious accidents in S America, S Asia, N Korea, and Syria would
also make for a calmer future, also.

There, some real pragmatic views.
MTC

[PhilosopherWarrior]

Originally Posted by Cordelier

You know what? Love him or hate him - and I think most people are on the hate side - you've got to hand it to him, Saddam knew what he was doing while he was in power... he was able to stay in power for about 30 years and rule a ethnically and religiously diverse country with an iron hand.?

..This is a similar opinion to "Hitler was a bad guy, but..."..
Pick a side.. Either Police-State collectives of a socialist-democratic slant
( a la' Hitler's Germany,Stalin's Soviet Union,Tung's ChiCom Republic,etc)
are GOOD { and you also oppose capitaist democracies }
OR they are an evil scourge, like disease, and we must do right
by our fellow humans.
Are you saying that POWER is the only thing to respect?

Originally Posted by Cordelier

We've tried parliamentary democracy there and it isn't working - the country is degenerating under their feet and all the democratically-elected representatives can do is quibble about who gets what share of power. Maybe the best course of action is to take a lesson from Saddam... find someone who can grasp the reins and power and give all Iraqis someone to rally around..

You repeat your underlying admiration for dictatorship,and a
terrorized and cowed populace.
Perhaps you are aware that "artificial" states that have
NO binding social/value "glue" except PC slogans and
equalitarian platitudes ALWAYS degenerates into rule of force.
What made America's unifying social/value "glue'?
Perhaps rather than a pre-fab euro-style gov't we should encourage
the rise of individual economic power-blocs.

Iraqi's who make money giving Iraqi's what they need to go to work , etc.
You know, more an American-style economy.

But then again,... the world ( or at least it's media) whines
we are trying to "tell them what to do."
{ rather like recalcitrant children, no?}

Clearly, the changes we have brought to the region in the last fifty years
( yes, we really HAVE been the global policeman since WWII.)
HAVE been very trying for the old style religious warlord dictators.

OBVIOUSLY this was a clash of civilizations the West wants accomplished peacefully.

But War happens from the desperate insecure side.. and
make no mistake readers,
We are in a struggle that ( like the crusades in the past ) IS generational.

We are part of a struggle that WILL go on for this century..

At least as long as we cannot articulate WHY America;
and why it's Capitalist/individualist philosophy is the more
progressive ( and successful) model for human societies.

{ Note, people, I am not an advocate of ALL of
America's corporate/gov't policies and actions
, and I really have deep criticisms and analyses
of the West and the US,..
but comparatively I know which side I am on..}

The US must articulate for our own people as well as the "occupied territories", and the world,
just what ARE the essential freedoms that America as a civilzation embody.

We must encourage that kind of individual actions for their own individual benfit..i.e. entrepeneurism.

We must encourage and support the governments that
believe in an impartial, secular, and dedicated judiciary.
The kind of men and women who we need in representative positions
in America, and everywhere, must NOT be typical Ivy-League trained academics and lawyers.
These are already people taught the subjective victim-oriented
disciplines of Marxist academia..

We need the experience of real managers and engineers.
These are people who will not be PC
and will not make bloodless, easy decisions.
Some will get rich and influential.
This IS as it should be.
This IS the model to build a proud and robust
representative democratic citizenry.

Originally Posted by Cordelier

Security and prosperity are the fertile ground that democracy needs to take root. Hell, even during the American Revolution, the Founding Fathers waited until the fighting was over before they set about writing a Constitution and electing their Government. So why are we putting the cart before the horse in Iraq?.

solly cholly, A government WAS set up BY the revolutionaries.
THERE had been widespread rhetoric and activism.
The Congress was a constant hamstring to military ( i.e. GWashington's) needs.
Adversity and principles overcomes the fears of risk and death.
Thirty years in a soviet-style police state does NOT
foster the proud individual who stands up
AND DOES THE RIGHT THING.

And yet, every day there really are unsung Iraqi's ( muslims all)
who get up in the morning and risk their families lives to rebuild a society. Schools and hospitals, yes.
But also bread distributors, and a/c repair companies,
innovative sellers of things Iraqis will want.

They ARE out there. And they are the targets of the
desperate criminal thugs.

Doctors and businessmen get killed there.
you know, the kind of people YOU would be for,
if you knew of them.

When THOSE people shoot back, and inform on the criminals ,
then their society will reform.
Until then we need to have a superlative ( and covert )
intel/police/judicial system assisting the modern system we are grafting there,
to surgically remove the cancerous criminal elements.
( including religious monsters.)


So we could do what the enemy wants, ( and you want too, Cordie..)
which is to let someone else ACT, and we can feel guilty and superior
all at the same time.
Like in the Sudan, right?
You all have expressed a number of contradictory and irrational opinions.
The elements of truth are connected wrong, and critical influences
are unaccounted for. These are simplistic and emotionally
tainted conclusions,Cordie; Ocham-;Ididnot-;gansta-; and do not serve America well.
Sure, there are much deeper criticisms of our domestic policies.
But NOT internationally..
Sure, we have serious debates about factions and a "mixed-economy"..
But NOT internationally..

What do we do in the semi-future?
Stay in the middle-East, continue to threaten ALL of the throwback primitive power factions there,
until the clerics and the tribal leaders are deposed and disgraced.

If we do it efficiently, we could "de-nazify" the region in twenty or thirty years.
( by the way, you ARE aware that
US political/military occupation of Germany
continues TO THIS DAY,
RIGHT?)
If we let the propaganda war go on ( letting the enemy win) we will have a lot of fires burning,
( which still could be handled with efficient and COVERT means).
This applies politically in Africa and Asia.
Some judicious accidents in S America, S Asia, N Korea, and Syria would
also make for a calmer future, also.

There, some real pragmatic views.
MTC

[Cordelier]

Philosopher - Forgive me if I don't address all your points... I'm kind of in a rush here.

First off, I'm not an advocate of dictatorships... but I acknowledge there are times that a dictatorship is perferable than the alternative.

Democracy is always the preferable form of Government, but unfortunately there are circumstances when and where it can't work. What use is a vote when you can't clothe and feed your family? What use is a vote when the candidates you're voting for are afraid to identify themselves for fear of assassination? That's the fundamental weakness of democracy... it requires a foundation of peace, security, and prosperity for it to work properly. Iraq today has none of those things.

My argument is simply that a transitional dictatorship can possibly pave the way to that foundation - not because Iraqis are incapable of democracy, but because they presently live under circumstances in which true democracy just isn't tenable.

When you get right down to it, it's a question of finding the balance between Law and Order. In order to function properly, every society needs to a measure of both... the problem comes when a society has to make a collective decision between which of the two is more important. Western societies tend to take a more individualistic approach and put Law above Order - they're more willing to sacrifice Order in order to preserve the rule of Law. Eastern societies, however, tend to value Order above the Rule of Law, and so have more of a bent toward authoritarian governments.

I know that's a simplification of what are complex political processes, but such as it is, when you get right down to it, that's the basic difference between democratic and authoritarian governments. So what accounts for the difference? In my opinion, the difference is economic - Western nations tend to be more affluent and therefore, having enough food for their families and able to afford militaries to preserve their security, they have the luxury of sacrificing order for the laws that preserve their freedom. Take away Americans security or their relative affluence and you will see how tenuous democracy can be. Eastern nations, by and large, and in differing degrees, have no such luxury, and so for them Order trumps Law.

That's why Democracy can't just "spring up" - it's a delicate flower that needs to be carefully tended. It needs the healthy soil of security and ardent fertilizer of economic well-being in order to thrive. And in the Iraq of today, there just isn't that fertile ground. That's why I suggest that what Iraq needs is the firm hand of a competent gardner - someone who can go in and take over and get the process moving toward the conditions under which democracy can take root... the same way Chung Hee Park was able to do so for South Korea.

[OkhamsRazor]

What we should do now is relatively simple. We need to restore order in Iraq. Get together all those that wish to earn money and start building walls and fences around each and every city/town in Iraq. They are already centralized populations. Each city would have one entry point and one exit. Everyone wishing to enter or leave must be questioned and searched.

This would force the insurgents into the outlying ares and make them easy targets for search and destroy units. It's already working in a few towns.

[PhilosopherWarrior]

Originally Posted by OkhamsRazor

What we should do now is relatively simple. We need to restore order in Iraq. Get together all those that wish to earn money and start building walls and fences around each and every city/town in Iraq. They are already centralized populations. Each city would have one entry point and one exit. Everyone wishing to enter or leave must be questioned and searched.

This would force the insurgents into the outlying ares and make them easy targets for search and destroy units. It's already working in a few towns.

This is not an attack..
But it is interesting that you have come to the same solution
that "the authorities",i.e. The State, have come to for Thousands of years.
The Romans combatted recalcitrant and violent populations by
congregating and regulating them.
Just as was done in the Soviet Union..
And was successful in Malaysia, and was used in Vietnam..
..The problem is an ideological one, and cannot be fought with only one or two "silver bullets". There must be a clear knowledge of
OUR OWN position ; the enemies position; and the strengths and weaknesses of both.
The resurgence of order in Iraq cannot be in the same fertile field
that allowed the choking weeds of tyranny.
If a transition period is necessary..
It would NOT be a good idea to let the students ( who DON'T know how )
run the University.
If a more controlled society is necessary NOW, while the populace
learns to think,and feel and act as individual citizens
first, and then obedient members of tribal and religious groups later..
An experienced democratic citizenry
( like our men and women in the US military) are
the BEST shield to take the barbs and bombs.
after all,
DURING the transition,
there will be stupid and violent actions and responses,

That's why it's called a transition.
MTC

[OkhamsRazor]

Sorry, I'm not advocating this as a permanent solution. Most of these towns are and have been centralized not by the hand of man, but because of the surrounding desert. Since we are not there for Imperial reasons (presumably), we don't need to understand their ideology, that is for their own government to tackle. It is our job to restore order and end the bloodshed, or as much of it as possible.

Separate the good citizens of Iraq from the "insurgents". Protecting them in the process. As I said, it's already working in a few towns. The good people of those towns have had order restored and no longer live in fear 24/7.

This is a practical solution to keep the people of Iraq and their children safe from "collateral damage" It's not a philosophically ideal solution, but allowing the insurgents to mix with the general population is unacceptable. People are dying!!! Children are dying!! Innocents are DYING! Philosophy doesn't shield anyone from bullets, walls and fences do.