I am getting strange looks from everyone that is seeing me laughing at the computer!

It is unbelievable how ignorant and shallow some American adults can be.

gangsta9.. If you choose to type your opinions
please review your knowledge of grammar, punctuation, and rational thinking.
We can listen to THAT gutter blather from ANY boob in the street.
Ididnot-;
Okhams-;
Sd123:
You all need to step up to the plate here..
Double standards and hypocritical partisanship should at least be acknowledged..

( ex: historical reasons for and conduct of wars by ALL combatants;
US admins positions for two decades vz Mideast;
US historical responses to atrocities)
I have brought up a dozen really arguable points..
You sidestep and say that while Iraq was better with a dictator
( albeit a sloppy one).. and many "backwards' people should be 'ruled'..
You DON'T want it to be Pres Bush, or American soldiers..
Yet..
There should be a tough guy there, it should be a local..
and the locals are bloody repressers..
and thats okay..
But Bush is a terrorist because he responds, doesn't respond, doesn't respond right, does nothing, does too much, is a stupid c student, is a brilliant politicker, is a led puppet of Cheny, Rove, oil companies,
AND the Nazi shadow cult..
oh, AND the jews.

Americans are dominating and repressing the world for the white, rich capitalists who want to enslave everyone to be their workers slaving so they can miseducate, and kill everyone,
AND the planet, too.
And it's all Bush's fault, or Rove, or Rumsfeld, or Rice, or the Neocons, or the right-wing christians, or the jews, or the oilmen, or cheney, or..
the nazis and the bilderbergers.
There was no holocaust in Europe, or Russia, Armenia, Angola, China, Cambodia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Vietnam, or
in fact anywhere, except in the United States.
well, those things happened but they don't count
to SOME here on the board.

I have lived in NYC for most of my life.
I watched the Apollo Moon Landing on TV
( like the rest of America)
and I remember when THIS war began.
..
I have actually seen and heard the same propaganda used against us in the decades before you opened your eyes.
I have read journalists and the agitprop aspects of
international diplomacy AND war of most of the last century.
YOU all repeat the tactics and allegations used by our enemies .
Don't you realize what is coming out of your minds?
You are betraying our civilization by listening to evil whispers.
PROPAGANDA!!
Do not ignore this topic.

It was declared..
OPENLY,PUBLICLY, and as a cultural war
against Israel, Europe, America, and
subliminally, against "progress and technology".
From the resurgence of xenophobic Islam
( note that 1972 was NOT the first atrocity )
EVERY progression in the conflict has been
declared BY THEIR leaders ( both gov't AND clerics)
AND they have NEVER backed down.

I realize that those events mentioned, and these
REAL and ACTUAL elements in Middle Eastern politics,
happened before many of you were out of school,
some weren't even born.
Consider that YOUR lack of depth and maturity is a graver issue
FOR America, than the provincial and desperate fundamentalists.
The writings by Americans on the subject are not easy reading for the "me" generation..
BUT you all better get it together and start THINKING..
We all went through the disgruntled adolescent rebellious stage.. but it's time to grow up and see the real and compromised world .
They tell us they are our enemy.
You tell us you don't have the spine to defend yourself..
FINE.
Just shutup and stop acting like you matter.. you whine about how your leaders ( oh yeah, some of you even deny THAT.. while demanding dictators for others!) don't diddle you right..
while carping about security...
then you complain about security measures..
then back to whining about high prices and lack of free medicine.
GROW UP INGRATES,
or get out of the way.
Laissez Faire

Ahem..
A little too much to absorb, folks?
And you all want to criticize the ones on top?
Come on.. this is barely a normal level of knowledge..
Just listen and read more than the Networks.
Come on.. The above post leaves you all with
no comment?
hmph
MTC

I agree with idid this post was not worth reading

And all I did was put HALF the leftist malcontent jabber out there
as one babble of your insanity.
Its not that hard Eli..
go one sentence at a time.. If you need help with the tough concepts ..
I'll get you up to speed..
But you have to WANT to not be an undereducated and shallow
tool of cancerous leftist academics..
Like you seem to be, already..

I have never wanted to kick someones ass more than I do right now. (not really true). Not for what PW said in his latest diatribe of right-wing defense blather, but how he said it.

Don't ever speak down to me you vociferous hack.

You're opinions are no more valid than anyone else's. And certainly no better reasoned. Your nothing more than a self important ideologue who has far too high an opinion of himself.

When you get down to the brass tacks, where the facts are, your arguments hold no water. (mixed metaphor I know).

Also, you really need to get off the "adolescent" reference train. I'm beginning to wonder why you have such a fascination with those years. The "shallow, uneducated" rhetoric is baseless, pointless and untrue. I know plenty of educated people that can't reason their way out of a paper bag... you for one. And i know (and I have said this before) uneducated hillbillies that can run circles around your so called "higher logic".

So piss off, you condescending putz.

Okay, I hate doing this, it's so JJ-esque, but you asked for it....

PW, this is a young American. gangsta9 is as close to the adolescent references you make as there is on this thread. He gets a free pass on the punctuation for taking the time to get involved in his countries politics. Most his age don't. This is an opportunity for him to learn and instead you debase him and attempt to tell him that his ideas are worthless. Perhaps you should consider the fact that this kid spent his last formative years under the "no-child-left-behind" mantra. He has or will graduate under that misguided political double speak. No child left behind indeed. Further more, this is one of the places that will allow him to practice his rational and critical thinking abilities. So... why don't you pick on someone your own size... or do you like harassing little boys? (sorry gangsta)

Agreed... by BOTH sides

Now this is an interesting... errr paragraph? As far as sidestepping... when you start bringing forth credible points of view (in agreement or not) then they will cease to be ignored, until then... quit crying about it. I like how you pulled together legitimate assessments of the lefts concerns about the administration and then tacked on the fringe view (Nazi shadow cult, jews...) to blanket anyone, everyone that disagrees with you. This is truly old school propaganda (hypocrite!). Oh, and the off handed compliment amidst the list of "Why we hate Bushisms", "brilliant politicker"... talk about shallow thinly veiled double speak. No one that you think are addressing would have used that phrase... EVER!

What you're doing here is salting the actual and legitimate concerns of rational people with accusations of the extreme elements of the left view, as well as your own overstated interpretations that you throw in for good measure. You FAILED to accurately assess the actual viewpoint of the more reasoned moderates. TRANSPARENT HACK!

See above comment

If that is what you have gained from our arguments then you are just plain deluded. None of us are saying the goal is to "miseducate, and kill everyone,
AND the planet, too." We're saying a select few well connected, very wealthy, old guard industrialist politicians have hijacked the power and authority of the USA to reshape the world in their narrow vision of the future. Yes, I know there has been a lot of talk about revelation, the rapture etc., but those were largely discussed under different contexts. There is a Jovian sized difference between what the religious right thinks they are fighting for and what this administration actually has planned. If you have missed that point throughout the many threads that it has been stated, you should have said so sooner... I'm sure one of us would have gone through it line by line.. you know, to help you through the tough concepts that seem to be obviously beyond your grasp.

Yes... well, yes and no. Again, you are mixing legitimacy with... well, an intellect like yours outa be able to finish that previously stated sentiment.

Yes, to suggest that the people listed above are not responsible for their OWN FAILINGS is... is.... sorry, there just doesn't seem to be a phrase that captures the shallow thought process involved with that.

No, because you left a lot of key people out. Namely, Wolfowitz, who has been pushing for intervention in Iraq since at least 1976. But we'll get back to him later. Bush Sr., also a principle in setting all of this in motion. I remember my history too.

Please show me some examples of any rational person (moderate or left) that denies these events or claims that it doesn't matter. Aside that the topic is centered on the current administration and is irrelevant, the left is usually at the forefront of outrage when atrocities happened. In addition, the America that existed at the time and the make up of the respective parties was drastically different when most of the atrocities you mention happened... more history...


continued...

__________________
S.O.S. ------ United We Stand, Divided We Fall

Check... no Alzheimer's yet...


Really? Apparently you haven't seen all of it.

There is a lot more to this story, but I think you get where I'm gong with this. That is my evidence (part of it) for these SPECIFIC men using the same SPECIFIC propaganda against US (We the People) in the past. Where's yours?

Smile when ya say that... I wanna see which teeth I'm gonna knock out. kidding... GET THIS AND GET IT GOOD YOU ARROGANT, ELITEST SELF-RIGHTEOUS, WONK! YOU are betraying my constitutional right to question my government representatives motives. I don't listen to evil anything. Don't own a TV, don't listen to talk radio... I read voraciously, talk with people as close to the situation as possible (regardless of their leanings) and make an honest attempt to independently evaluate the facts and evidence at hand. The fact that folks are coming to their own independent conclusions that jibe with mine only lends more credence to the validity of the evidence and the collective assessment. I have traveled enough, experienced many societies at many different levels. I have the maturity, intelligence and confidence to arrive at my own conclusions. I have personal contact with generals, colonels, majors, congressmen etc. I read official government records of precedings. I seek out factual information from as unbiased a viewpoint as possible and am able to recognize opinion and subtle innuendo. And I can take you apart on an intellectual playing field any day of the week.

What hasn't been openly and publicly declared, is why the west has had their fingers in the middle east pie for .. going on a century now. From the end of the great war until now, we have been meddling in their internal affairs. We were responsible for bringing about the revolution in Iran. We sold Sadam AND Osama many of their weapons systems. Lets not forget the Iran Contra affair. Even if they were a bunch of retards, how long do you think it would be before they realized that we don't give a flying fig about their culture, security, government, values, etc. and that we are playing solely for our interests. Think there might be some resentment issues there? Justifiable? Perhaps, but at least they are up front about it and not at all two faced about it. Be that as it may, these "progressions were preceded and precipitated by our own meddling.
ANd why should they give in to the two faced bully? I wouldn't. At some point you have to stand up and fight for your lunch money... after all, it's THEIR lunch money.

Okay, now I'm not kidding. Take another cheap shot, you hack, and you're gonna find yourself on the floor. Ya know.. the only people in this forum I have seen infringe on the rights of free speech are on the right. Don't ever tell me to shut up. It's about as un american a thing as I can think of.

LMAO, speaking of sidestepping issues.... HYPOCRITE!

We have, a long time ago. And we learned to ignore angry rhetoric from desperate men who are losing the highground a long time ago too.

Make me, DINK! I will be standing my ground long after you're in the ground pal.

__________________
S.O.S. ------ United We Stand, Divided We Fall

Good Morning,
and Happy Mother's Day to all you Mom's out there!

And to you too, George O Well,..
You seem to be a bit of a "mutha", too.
hahahahaha

*sigh*

I noticed how quickly you took a fairly remote
( after all, none of us here in this discussion are DC policy "wonks", right?)
debate, and responded with subjective emotion
and personal jabs..
'adolescent' has connotations that disturb you?
It is a term, and I find that it is not accurate a definition; collegiate;sophomoric; these also are less than perfect words
for a period of development that humans go through.
...A couple of things here..
One : This is a typing, but informal forum.. We tend to recreate the conversational style we use when we speak.
it is less than contemplative.. Most of us are less than stellar writers
and I for one, am trying to push through too many concepts in too few words.

Two: I didn't notice, did you give us any context for YOUR opinions?
Do you have kids? Do you remember being a developing adult?
.. Ever have a conversation with a college student; or a HS senior?; or a fifteen year old malcontent?
Ever try to convey a sense of adult maturity to a group of teenagers hanging out ?
.. Ever try to explain to a five year old why they have to tie their own shoes?
What do they do?.. Ever watch a sixteen year old tantrum?
... Have you ever tried to explain the consequences
of actions to a dropout seventeen year old?
... How about the "tough love" decision of dealing with a young adult, who lives at home, and contributes nothing to the family..
But causes great discord by complaining and challenging the parents,
and society?
... Ever have to bail out a teenager for shoplifting on one day;
and a week later bail out a 28 year old driver
( technically an adult)
for near-assaulting a NYC cop..
and hearing identical justifications and evasion of responsibility?
... Or is it that in all your reading, you've never encountered any discussion of the WAY humans mature to being responsible and capable ADULTS.
Or not.
( Ever hear of the theory that subjective emotionality IS a stage of maturation; That when a person doesn't stop reacting with emotion and subjective defensiveness..they are termed "arrested developmentally"
Ever read any pyschology on the subject? )


George, you say...."The "shallow, uneducated" rhetoric is baseless, pointless and untrue. I know plenty of educated people that can't reason their way out of a paper bag... you for one.
And I know (and I have said this before) uneducated hillbillies that can run circles around your so called "higher logic"....

Umm. If you know people who are educated and CAN'T reason well
..then my charge is NOT baseless, is it?
If you have not answered my assertions with anything but repeated "shallow" charges of "Lies!" or attempts of dismissal..
you are NOT running circles around me..
..
If you have a mentality that puts a Presidents education policy
as the blame AND justification for a persons lack of desire
to communicate more effectively
( see gangsta's and other poster's remarks,
as well as thousands of citizens and their
unconsidered and immature ventings.)
Then YOU are expressing concepts that are just as alien to
America as the Straussian/Marxian ones you have acknowledged.
In fact,
if you can accuse and say that there are
suspicious disciplines in academia..
Then the argument is whether the particular opinions
we hold are rational and not built on insinuations.
.. So we do agree about the threats to the future people in our society.
right, George?
But you got your back up, because you reacted to my tone..

You DON'T listen to TalkRadio..
hmm.. why the rejection of a rather unique form of broadcasting?
It does provide determined citizens with a chance to speak to millions.
Statistically.. while maybe one percent of listeners are callers.. the pattern of polling opinions does provide a value.
Perhaps you are rejecting because of Limbaugh,
who is an example of media self-promotion. Certainly as a distraction/provocation..his bombastic rhetoric can annoy his opposition.
But the pioneers were the true value.
You really do get great interviews and access to the news people .
Bob Grant was abrasive.. but the best at getting interesting and erudite people.
The authors, professors, activists, and lawyers for events and politics. for decades.
You read alot? Then Grant interviewed them. And if you read alot.. Then what is it that you read?
Is it by any chance the circle of webpages I have seen you quote?
hmm..
The smudgereport leads you to a lot of leftist pages.
If you spend three or four hours at it.. You get a plethora of anti-Bush attacks..
dozens of conspiracy theories.. many merely strained factionalism..
some hysterical and disturbing..
All that you try to dismiss are legitimate and passionately held positions found in various leftist webpages. I have seen them dozens of times.. and I have read them repeated in a score of discussion forums.
I have listened to the leftist socialist webpage's diatribe against any particular enemy,get repeated out of the mouths of my
fellow working class New Yorkers as if they had concieved it.
I can lead you there..
But considering that you go there yourself..
and cut-and-paste from them...
You know that all I did was playback the hysteria average people get plastered with.
Did you read that pro-nazi anti-jewish propaganda one of us put on in the other thread?
Oh yeah, Georgey, everyone's opinion has the same value..
Wrong philosophy, and THAT is how we are being undermined by academia..
Goerge says: What hasn't been openly and publicly declared, is why the west has had their fingers in the middle east pie for .. going on a century now. From the end of the great war until now, we have been meddling in their internal affairs. We were responsible for bringing about the revolution in Iran. .. Who says it hasn't been open?
If you say you don't access the information.. who's fault is that?
You don't have to be an expert or an encyclopedia..
and if you want to know..
just go to wikipedia..
Daniel Yergin wrote "The Prize".. it's a PBS mini-series..
and while a thick book is really readable.
He is not a neocon..and this is a great history of petroleum.
Now underlying a lot of attacks is the concept that
economic interests
( read factions of some citizens in control of somecompanies)
are directing war; and that this is a unique and immoral act.
This itself, is a shallow conclusion based on historical politics,
[and is usually couched in an extremely provocative rhetoric]

Petroleum as a technological foundation of our civilization
NOW affects every element of our society.
Previous decisions by generations of workers, citizens, and politicians
force our range of choices.
This book explains just THIS perspectives view..
It's easy to get and the other open "secrets" of diplomacy usually involve the difficulties dealing with tribal leaders cum 'statesmen'.

The charecteristic of an adult is to be able to analyse and judge many different and contrary perspectives and concepts..
and then, by applying the principled values of his own judges and comes to a position..
Sometimes not necessarily the first thought that enters their mind.

By the way GeorgeYou say:
have never wanted to kick someones ass more than I do right now. (not really true).
Don't ever speak down to me you vociferous hack.
You're opinions are no more valid than anyone else's. And certainly no better reasoned
Not true, clearly I am able to recall many supporting positions
from diverse sources, as well as being able to access new and
accredited sources. Additionally, I have demonstrated an
acknowledgement of opposing and reasoned opposition,
as well as offering additional unaccounted for info.
You add other bon mots:
So piss off, you condescending putz..
TRANSPARENT HACK!

Okay..
The PNAC is a "thinktank" that , as a faction,
has influence in the American Nation.
That makes it a good enough argument..
The context is going to include history, and not just your spin.
Our "fingers"? please, just exactly what are these atrocious meddlings we perform?
Are we talking about Sovereign and democratic societies?
When exactly did you decide we weren't embarked on
the Wilsonian "league of Nations" crusade?
Since that WAS the diplomatic game for decades..
we have the unenviable job of being leader of nations;
broker for companies to foreign regimes and State monopolies;
REFEREE for business transactions;
Guardian of national security;
AND manager of present and future resources and capital.
.. It seems that in reading details of this and other documents
brings a different perspective to intervention, intent,
and percieved risks and benefits.
hmph..
America is in the position of bringing the developing societies
( civilizations) into a playing field ( economic and political democracies;
pluralistic and juridically secular ) that is alien and
threatening to them.
THEY WILL AND ARE RESISTING.
It is a difficult transition, but NO plan..
like our policy during the nineties
leads clearly to a worse situation.
Iran and Iraq/Syria.. that is to say, Radical Islamic Fundamentalists
and Baathist holdouts should have been mopped up then..
Saadam was on the ropes in '93, and
the USSR was desperately reeling.
No political bashing here, but Bill Clintons policy of
dithering, legalism, and appeasement
( as well as the Food for Oil corruption)
was NOT a success.
.. History still has not settled WWI, WWII, Korean War, OR Vietnam..
Try not to be so passionate about attacking your own leaders..
There may be more to the situation than you or pundits are aware.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you don't even know who you are talking to much less what you are talking about. My name here is OKHAM not George.

The rest of your post is obviously not worth my time. Sorry you put so much effort into it.

__________________
S.O.S. ------ United We Stand, Divided We Fall

Ohhh wait a minute... Arrested development, selective reading, PNAC.... I get it, you're talking to George... BUSH!

By the way.. I like the way you duck the Wolfowitz issue. Best not to keep that in the consciousness of the reader. Better keep blathering on about... about... what? I don't know.

Just as well, you go ahead and think that you've got me pegged. There is greater advantage in being underestimated.

Also, just thought I'd mention this.. An AP poll just released indicates that 52% of republicans that voted for Bush think we are on the wrong path. Everyone else already knows this. So keep up your inane defense of the indefensible, you are sounding more ridiculous to more people by the day I love it!

__________________
S.O.S. ------ United We Stand, Divided We Fall