The objective was to enforce Iraqi compliance with the Gulf War ceasefire... Saddam was given 12 years to follow through on that and still was in material breach. If there was a way to ensure Iraqi compliance without using the "necessary means" of deposing Saddam's regime, then that course of action would have also been legitimate.

Cordelier...let's get one thing straight here and now...you have been trying to present a reasoned argument and have been courteous about it...that is much different from Amazed methods of debate.

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OBAMA/PEROT

If you have a ceasefire and one side continuously violates it, how valid is that ceasefire?

You chose the methods...I just responded to you in kind. Now, stop crying and accept that you've been wrong the entire time. As soon as you get tired of him showing you your error, you will ignore him too.

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"These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world...
...and then we fucked up the end game." - Charlie Wilson

The problem with that argument is twofold...

First, we haven't accomplished that objective.

Second, to legitimize that argument we should have gone back and got a resolution stating that was the intention and therefore we were going to have to take military action into Iraq...why didn't we do that?

The UN is probably one of the worst examples of do nothing bureaucracy on the planet and as we have already agreed, we didn't need them but I'm not arguing that point.

Let me try and put this into perspective...my coming into this debate started way back when Tileboy made the statement that there were 14 UN resolution authorizing Military action to go into Iraq.

That is obviously not true and he has long since run off with his tail between his legs but we have carried on.

We can continue to debate the semantics but I don't see much sense it that...besides, I've other things to do that will keep me entertained so, unless you are prepared to offer evidence that spells out that the UN sanctioned us going into Iraq which would have taken unanimous UNSC support which we obviously didn't have or France, Germany, Russia etc would have joined in, I'm going to leave this debate at the point we have come to.

I thank you for your participation...it's been fun.

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OBAMA/PEROT

How can you be taken serioulsy when nothiing is done for over 10 yeas about the violations...

It isn't...a rhetorical question...

How does employing bigger weapons enforce a ceasefire?

Now folks...back to our regularly scheduled program...

Originally Posted by areyoushittin'me?
...everybody who is so adamant about justice being done relative to the soldier in question...why doesn't the military simply use a bit of common sense and say, "Ok, fine, you don't agree with the Iraq war, we'll send you back to Afghanistan instead and you can "serve" there"...huh?

Anybody got a problem with getting back to that mess?

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OBAMA/PEROT

We can continue to debate the semantics but I don't see much sense it that...besides, I've other things to do that will keep me entertained so, unless you are prepared to offer evidence that spells out that the UN sanctioned us going into Iraq which would have taken unanimous UNSC support which we obviously didn't have or France, Germany, Russia etc would have joined in, I'm going to leave this debate at the point we have come to.

...and there it is. He wants to parse everything...hence the definition of "is" reference. Context, and Linear thought are required to understand the sequential nature of the entire episode. I absolutely believe Shittin can do both, I simply find him to be completely disingenuous in this entire debate.

__________________
"These things happened. They were glorious and they changed the world...
...and then we fucked up the end game." - Charlie Wilson

Rock Star Bono Applauds Bush Efforts to Aid Africa
Cites AIDS funding, anti-corruption element of Millennium Challenge Account
By Susan Ellis
Washington File Staff Writer

Washington – Bono, lead singer of the rock group U2 and co-founder of DATA (Debt, AIDS, Trade, Africa), appeared on American television June 26 to express the hope of those who have been working on development issues in Africa that the meeting of "the eight most powerful men in the world" -- the Group of Eight (or G8, consisting of Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States) Summit in Gleneagles, Scotland, July 6-8 -- will bring about a "historic breakthrough … on issues facing the poorest of the poor."

Interviewed on NBC’s Meet the Press via video link from Dublin, Ireland, Bono had high praise for President Bush: "I think he's done an incredible job, his administration, on AIDS. And 250,000 Africans are on anti-viral drugs. They literally owe their lives to America. In one year that's been done."

The push to bring good health to Africans cannot address only AIDS treatment, he added, but must also deal with the "environment in which viruses like AIDS thrive -- or malaria. Three thousand Africans die every day of a mosquito bite. That's not acceptable in the 21st century and we can stop it. And waterborne illnesses -- dirty water takes another 3,000 lives -- children, mothers, sisters."

Acknowledging that the U.S president is under great pressure in dealing with international terrorism and domestic finances, Bono said that if Bush in his second term is "as bold in his commitments to Africa as he was in the first term, he indeed deserves a place in history in turning the fate of that continent around."

Having worked on Bush's AIDS initiative and the Millenium Challenge Account, the rock star thinks Bush "deserves his place in history. He has the heart for it," he added, "but his advisers are going … to have to let him sign … a proper check.

"One billion dollars is all it would take to save a million lives from malaria with bed nets, etc. -- $1 billion. Four billion dollars, you could change the world. From the United States, an extra commitment of $4 billion" would go a long way, he said.

The Millennium Challenge Account is a U.S. supplementary aid program launched by President Bush to reward poor nations that invest in the education and health care of their citizens, fight corruption and promote good governance.

Bono said he loves and believes in America and it upsets him when others say America is not doing enough. "The president is right to say they're doing a quarter of all aid to Africa. He has doubled, even tripled -- if he follows through -- aid to Africa."

Speaking of another threat to Africa, that of the corruption of some leaders, Bono said: "This is the number one issue, and there's no way around it. That's what's so clever about President Bush's Millennium Challenge. It was start-up money for new democracies. It was giving increases of aid flows only to countries that are tackling corruption."

Although the implementation of Bush's Millennium Challenge has not been easy, he said, "they're trying to put it right." Aid in the old sense, "the money-down-a-rat-hole thing," is no more, Bono said. "It makes matters worse, not better. This is new, targeted aid."

He added that some countries will need mercy, and aid must go there regardless. "But in those instances," he said, "you just route the aid away from the governments and through the NGOs [nongovernmental organizations] on the ground. That's the modern way."

Bono is also an impetus behind the July 2 “LIVE 8” concerts which aim to spur the world's richest nations to take action to combat poverty in Africa at the July 6-8 Group of Eight summit in Scotland. The concerts -- scheduled for London, Paris, Berlin, Rome, Philadelphia, Tokyo, Barrie [Canada], Johannesburg [South Africa] and Moscow -- bring together leading musicians and millions of fans in a call for debt cancellation, increased aid and “trade justice” for the world’s poorest people, according to LIVE 8 organizers.

“There could be a million spectators, 2 billion viewers, but there is only 1 message ... to get the 8 most powerful politicians in the world, meeting at the G8 Summit … ‘to stop 30,000 children dying every single day of extreme poverty,’” according to U2’s Web site. Bono and U2 will perform at the LIVE 8 concert in London.

For additional information on U.S. assistance to the continent, see Aid to Africa.

The transcript of Bono’s remarks on Meet the Press is available at the MSNBC Web site.

The regulation s of the military are such that this guy will be punished. He should be. I think what really is key in this is that soldiers arent mindless robots. IN aone foew instances I have to agree with rednecks in that this dude siged the contract and is under obligation. Recuiters though are like used car salesmen and to take advantage of ignorance of potential recurits. As we know though ingnorance is not excuse for law breaking.