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05-12-2008, 12:21 PM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 14,982
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Seems NOYB was right afterall...............
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05-12-2008, 12:22 PM
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Political Guru
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: West Kentucky
Posts: 868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crowonapost
I agree with you. I also think that we have purposefully chosen to be behind the current world realities when it comes to also training for Peace keeping forces that work in conjunction with the rapid response forces. Europe, because of their long standing interactions with these issues have incorporated that into their military infrastructures.
Where ever our military forces have been in a community for a longer period of time than a year deployment...That is the command structure locally has stayed instead of being changed after that one year, they have found ways to interact & work through problems in the local community. Regretfully this has been a backwards way of having to learn that there needs to be a peace keeping contingent of the military. Before Iraq the U.S. military actually had disdain for this aspect that Europe has been incorporating fro a while Quietly based on the real world issues on the ground they are begrudgingly incorporating these lessons.
This is a far more underestimated & an important aspect of the 'complete' tool set we need to deal with these insurgent issues.
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Thanks for the post, "crow": why would we "purposefull chose to be behind" the rest of the world in these assets? Even to me the need for this capability seems to be so obvious: I thought we needed such a capability with the first WTC bombing, Blackhawk Down incident, the Saudi barracks bombing, the embasy bombings, and the Cole: all Middle Eastern or very close by.
I don't care if it was Clinton or Reagan, or the Bushes, some administration really missed the boat when they let these things go by without developing a swift effective terrible ruthless military response to such events. The Romans used "decimation", we need a modern military "decimating-like" response froce that drops in & kicks ass & gets out & don't look back. ...pjwky
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05-12-2008, 12:24 PM
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Political Novice
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. Crowley
Seems NOYB was right afterall...............
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My apologies - I just wanted to quote you on that. |
05-12-2008, 02:09 PM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Mid-south
Posts: 11,800
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul H
If you must know, I could go to school without the GI Bill comfortably. Since I was 15, I’ve had this cool new thing called a “job.” I joined the army when I was 17, in no legal trouble more severe than a few MIP's. I've no hard-on for personally killing Osama bin Laden (or anyone, for that matter), or single-handedly crushing global terrorism. I volunteered for the Army, and I volunteered for my deployment. Granted, it’s nothing compared to the sacrifice some of you folks have put in for the democratic process, with your campaign contributions, Obama puff-paint sweatshirts, and all that glitter you bought for your “Change” signs, but it’s my little way of justifying myself as an American, doing my little part to contribute to something bigger than myself.
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Your time in service is to be admired at any level.
Second, I do not give any money to any political campaigns, don't fool yourself into thinking all people who voted for X candidate are the same.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul H
I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that some progress, no matter how much some folks want to trivialize it, HAS been made. Saddam’s gone, elections happened, and we’re trying to help strengthen and hold together Iraq’s very own security forces, and fragile government.
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But what was the REAL goal in the first place? The leadership of this country put American troops into positions that actually increased terrorism and violence by 50 fold. This is still going on today. Actually, Saddam had suppressed violence like this in his own country. So, in what way is there real progresss?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul H
You won’t find me arguing as to whether or not we should have been there in the first place, and certainly won’t find me defending the short-sightedness in the planning of the subsequent occupation and rebuilding process. I couldn’t even say for sure if the obscure goal of a free and independent Iraq is even possible. I also provide no great end-all be-all of solutions to the question of “What the fuck do we do now?” It’s safe to say that this is a job for greater minds than mine.
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The 'greater minds' than yours are not so great. This has been going on a long time with a 'give it three more months' about every three months...believe me, these ARE NOT greater minds than yours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul H
The reason I continue to respond to these body count threads is that they obviously provide no solution either. Posting a number as if it were a fitting representation of these men and women’s sacrifice shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what they did for their comrades, and why. People have no right to say whether or not they died for no reason, and no right to assume that they wouldn’t do it again. That goes for me as much as it goes for the OP.
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Should we respond to "give it three more months" though? If that is not working then you use body counts to grab someones attention...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul H
People that think it’s just a matter of “Let’s leave now” are guilty of the same sort of irresponsible over-simplification of an enormous problem that the people who started the war are guilty of. The same goes for any sort of scheduled troop reductions that don’t coincide with a similar amount of progress on the part of the Iraqis. There may come a time when we’re forced to “cut our losses” and limp back home without having accomplished the mission. I find it hard to grip for even a moment that the appropriate time for leaving is this election year.
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Actually, we have a NATO commitment in Turkey just to the North and can draw troops back to there. We can be close without seeing this trickle of death going on with our ground forces.
Last edited by cat's meow; 05-12-2008 at 02:12 PM.
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05-12-2008, 02:12 PM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 13,136
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There are no rason why we cant leave. The elcetion is theleast of them. There are no logisticval obstacles thats right wing pundits excuses not soldiers. Thats what this dude is. Nothiing more.
It would though have to be through Kuwait. And there aint no problem with that.
AS long as IT IS NOT...a "Phased withdrawl"
__________________
Cussing out low class inbreds isnt uninteligent, its honest
Good typing is not inteligent its dexiteritous.
Everything you just said is total bullshit
Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V8Ek...eature=related
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05-12-2008, 07:51 PM
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Political Novice
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cat's meow
Your time in service is to be admired at any level.
Second, I do not give any money to any political campaigns, don't fool yourself into thinking all people who voted for X candidate are the same.
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No, it's not to be admired. My time in the service is a job. I get paid, and it's not as if I was put in uniform against my will. Admire those dead men and women, and admire the living casualties of the war, but again - I came back alive, and I'm not carrying prosthesis and a colostomy bag around with me.
I apologize for the Obama comments. I realize it's hard to be taken seriously when I downright insult people just because of the candidate they support. I guess I just fail to see what the fuck the man has to offer the country. Umm... charisma? Oratory skills? Taxes? Is there a single Illinois politician that knows anything about the real world? Does serving a couple years in the US senate provide any prerequsites to running a country? To be fair, it remains to be seen if any of these asshats running for president has an actual plan for Iraq. Saying you opposed the war from the beginning, and that you'll "bring 'em home immediately" is such childish, irresponsible rhetoric. The amount of success that this man has built upon the shoulders of this bullshit is a sad commentary on the state of politics, and the American voter. No substance. No experience. Just another foolish Illinois liberal that has no grip on reality. I like the idea of change, and I don't necessarily disagree that we may have to leave Iraq. I just don't see Barrack Obama achieving either, at least without some very serious consequences that come from electing a leftist president.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cat's meow
But what was the REAL goal in the first place? The leadership of this country put American troops into positions that actually increased terrorism and violence by 50 fold. This is still going on today. Actually, Saddam had suppressed violence like this in his own country. So, in what way is there real progresss?
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Well, if we're gonna beat the dead horse of "OMG, they lied to us, it's all about moar OILZ," let me just re-state that the decision to go there in the first place, while questionable at best, is fucking done. There have been great consequences for a lot of fuckin people, but I think you'll find that what's done is done, and we should ask where we go from here instead.
Saddam was a bad guy from what I gather. Nobody is sad that he's gone.
We've helped install something resembling democracy there.
Iraq is trying to slowly learn how to hold itself together without a dictator in power.
Yes, we de-stabilized Iraq, and yes, people continue to die because of that fact. The fact is - it's done. We can't take it back. We can leave the country as is, or we can try our best to leave that country better off than it was when we brought this shit-storm to their doorstep. How long would that take? I don't know. I do know it will cost a lot of money, and more American lives. I wouldn't personally trade a single American Soldier for a thousand 'beebs, but it's not my decision to make, and I can't claim to know better than anyone else about the long-term, or the bigger picture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cat's meow
Should we respond to "give it three more months" though? If that is not working then you use body counts to grab someones attention...
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It just seems like dirty politics to me. As someone said, no, those lives aren't exclusively personal, and yes, Americans should take that number very seriously. Maybe I'm just a pussy, but I'm not comfortable turning those people into a number, and using it for my own political agenda. I'll tell you what - if I get smoked next time I'm in Iraq, I'll say "give this note to my girlfriend - and please... remember what I died for: change we can believe in." That way you guys can have a dead guy to support your bumper-sticker politics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cat's meow
Actually, we have a NATO commitment in Turkey just to the North and can draw troops back to there. We can be close without seeing this trickle of death going on with our ground forces.
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I can say with a relative amount of certainty, that insurgents would follow us to Turkey, provided they would allow us to withraw in that direction, which the Turks in all likelihood would not. If we're going to leave, it's a matter of going to Kuwait, and LEAVING THE MIDDLE EAST. Don't think for a second that switching countries is going to make terrorists forget about 100k+ worth of Americans running around the ME.
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05-13-2008, 12:01 AM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 13,136
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Nobdy gioves a shti about the "Terroists" what you people should care about is the massicve debt and loos of life for a total clusterfuk.
Suply lies dont go through Turkey. The Military has gooten pretty stupid. I really dont think that stupid though. Nobdy could name me a port capble of handling Military traffic of whole corps worth fo equipment for years. its one thing to stand set up one division for one push wich want really needed. Its another thing to sustain those lines for years. Espeicaly if you think the turks cant keep out insurgents even after prooving to have done so for the entire length of this war so far.
Thes einsurgents can think all they want. They wont get into nations liek Kuwait and saudi. Those nation dont play. How many attacks were commited in Kuwait since this thing started..One maybe two at the most in the intial year.
There is nothing but poltical bullshit keeping them from leaving.
Iraqis will fight it out tomorow or 100 years from now when the Americans leave you will not tame these people. You claim they are total fanatics and then claim they can be quelled. You cant and wont kill them all. You bred more everyday.
Its more then a job when your kiling people. I really dont belive your are or were a soldier. Its one thing for these third rate shitbags to have no concern for life. I know real soldiers learn better especialy after ebing subjectgating to such brutality
__________________
Cussing out low class inbreds isnt uninteligent, its honest
Good typing is not inteligent its dexiteritous.
Everything you just said is total bullshit
Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V8Ek...eature=related
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05-13-2008, 11:23 AM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: The Republic of Texas
Posts: 5,730
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Nobdy gioves a shti about the "Terroists" what you people should care about is the massicve debt and loos of life for a total clusterfuk.
What massive debt? BY FAR, the US has the lowest debt ratio in the world.
There is nothing but poltical bullshit keeping them from leaving.
It's called "Iran"
__________________
Victory in Iraq
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05-13-2008, 02:15 PM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 14,982
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Bitch-troll wowsa.
Each and every time you speak, you lie.
It cannot be simple ignorance which compels you.
Fuck-You, you pathetic little fascist bitch.
If ever I were to meet you, I would break your pencilneck.
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05-13-2008, 02:17 PM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 13,136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wow
Nobdy gioves a shti about the "Terroists" what you people should care about is the massicve debt and loos of life for a total clusterfuk.
What massive debt? BY FAR, the US has the lowest debt ratio in the world.
There is nothing but poltical bullshit keeping them from leaving.
It's called "Iran"
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You make less sence and you use spell check
__________________
Cussing out low class inbreds isnt uninteligent, its honest
Good typing is not inteligent its dexiteritous.
Everything you just said is total bullshit
Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-V8Ek...eature=related
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