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Old 12-22-2007, 02:16 PM
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Default In Iraq's success, Bush's vindication

In Iraq's success, Bush's vindication

'None of the American mistakes invalidate the war - any more than the Dresden bombings invalidated the fight against Hitler'

For the past two years, I have taught a course on the Iraq war -- first at the graduate level at The New School university in New York, and now at the undergraduate level at my new home at Queen's University in Kingston, Ont. We spend a lot of time on the background to the war before moving onto its consequences. At a certain point, I pop the question: Is democracy a failure in Iraq? Students usually eye me suspiciously before offering up a series of conditionals: If so and so happens then failure is more or less likely, while so and so suggests the possibility of success.

In a world of instant opinions and impatient journalistic commentary, discussions of democratic development in Iraq -- and with it, the judgment of the war itself -- have become well-nigh impossible. In the classroom, however, it is possible to take the long view. And while my students are usually skeptical about the prospects of success, my own view is more positive: Iraqi democracy is on the right track. As it continues to develop in the decades to come, George W. Bush's war will be vindicated.

Let me explain with reference to two key considerations: legacies and time-horizons.

It is no secret that Iraq labours under several legacies -- a history of imperial mis-design, an economy and a political culture devastated by the consequences of Saddam Hussein's regime, ethnic divides, the oil curse and a wholly undemocratic regional setting -- all of which makes democracy-building a tall order.

Yet Iraq is rising to the challenge. The only semi-democratic states in the Arab world are Jordan and Kuwait. Iraq is rapidly surpassing them in terms of its electoral, civil and media freedoms.

Democracies with income levels similar to Iraq include the Philippines, Indonesia and Nicaragua. They represent the proper standard of comparison for the quality of democracy in Iraq. And by that standard, the country is doing fairly well. Iraq's legislature is, albeit slowly, making real progress. Laws governing oil revenues, the re-integration of ex-Baathists and the country's first national budget are either already agreed upon or close to it. The rights of provincial governors are to be clarified by another new law.

Meanwhile, the government is sharing out oil revenues, hiring ex-Baathists and spending on capital construction through consensus arrangements. Through it all, the give-and-take of coalitional politics is emerging.

As for time horizons, the government elected in 2005 has served only two years in office. We usually give our politicians at least a four-to five-year term in order to engineer even minor changes in public policy. Why would we expect Iraq to build a functioning democracy in terrible conditions in a shorter time? Talk about double standards.

"Sure," you might say, "the Iraqis may yet establish a decent democracy of some sort. But why would this vindicate the war itself ? Wasn't the Bush administration deceitful in its use of weapons-of-mass-destruction as a pretext for launching the invasion? And didn't the absence of a UN Security Council resolution explicitly authorizing war make it an illegal act?"

Yes, on both counts, but that does not undermine the justification of the war.

While American citizens are rightly angered by the Bush administration's

mendacity on WMD, the failure of democratic checks and balances prior to the war, and the war's mounting costs (which will make every American about $10,000 poorer according to economist Joseph Stiglitz), as an outsider my concern was simply the elimination of a rogue regime and the provision of better life prospects for its citizens. On this count, there was a robust humanitarian justification for the war against Saddam's Iraq.

Of course, the war had to meet certain conditions.

First, the war had to be fought justly. Lots of mistakes have been made in fighting this war -- the early emphasis on "force protection" that resulted in needlessly high civilian casualty rates, for instance, and the travesty of dozens of prisoners being mistreated at Abu Ghraib (the prison where Saddam's regime tortured and executed an estimated 7,000 dissidents between 1984 and 1999). But none of these mistakes are serious enough to invalidate the war as a whole, any more than the Dresden bombings invalidated the fight against Hitler.

Secondly, the war had to do on balance more good than harm -- the so-called "proportionality" condition. The more than 100,000 Iraqi deaths since the war's onset -- roughly 0.4% of the population -- has been a horrible price to pay for removing Saddam from power. This figure, however, must be compared with the number of lives that would eventually be lost when Saddam's unpopular and sadistic regime fell by indigenous hands -- say, by a Shia-led assassination or an internal Baath-party coup.

Virtually every analysis of such a scenario predicts a bloody mess that would make the chaos that actually unfolded in post-invasion Iraq look like a petty squabble by comparison. When Idi Amin's similarly loathed regime in Uganda fell to an internal rebel insurgency in 1979, 200,000 lives -- 1.6% of the population -- were lost before order was restored in 1986. Yugoslavia's wars of succession had already claimed just over 1% of the local population be-fore NATO interventions in Bosnia and Kosovo (neither endorsed by the UN) ended the killings there. By any measure, the "proportionality" condition has been met in Iraq.

Finally, there had to be a reasonable probability of success. This is where the establishment of a democratic government comes in.

The developments described above are vindicating, not undermining, the original case for war. The U.S. Congress is right to set demanding benchmarks for the Iraqi parliament as part of plans for a drawdown of U.S. forces as early as 2009. But this bureaucratic imperative is no substitute for objective analysis. Iraq's democracy may be failing some congressional benchmarks, but it is succeeding beyond appropriate expectations that account for Iraq's cruel legacies, its income level, and its short lifespan.

I'm no fan of Bush. But I am a fan of the Iraq war. As Iraq's democracy emerges -- the next parliamentary elections are due in late 2009 -- my appreciation of the tragic need for this war will continue to grow.

gilleyb@queensu.ca

-Bruce Gilley is an assistant professor of political studies at Queen's University.
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Old 12-22-2007, 09:27 PM
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You call this "vindication"? Yeah, real good stuff. Give me a break.
Quote:
[b]UN report: Two million Iraqi children face disease, poverty

Published: Friday December 21, 2007



While violence is slowly subsiding in parts of Iraq, living conditions are still deplorable. According to a new U.N. Children's Fund estimate, two million children in Iraq face the “unrelenting threats of poor nutrition, disease and no school.”

“Iraqi children were frequently caught in the crossfire of the conflict this year, with hundreds losing their lives or injured by violence,” the agency said. “Many more had the main wage-earner in their family kidnapped or killed.”


UNICEF determined that only 28 percent of Iraqi 17-year-olds completed their final school exams this year. As more families sought shelter in safer Iraqi regions or other countries, an average of 25,000 children per month fled their homes this year.

Security concerns and mass displacement have made it difficult to raise funds and deliver needed aid. UNICEF only received $40 million towards its $144 million appeal for Iraq this year, spokeswoman Veronique Taveau told a news briefing in Geneva. But the U.N. Children's Fund thinks there is a window of opportunity for more aid to reach Iraqi children in 2008.

"Iraqi children are the foundation for their country's recovery,” said Roger Wright, UNICEF's special representative for Iraq. “We continue to owe them our very best in 2008 and beyond.”

A BBC clip details this depravity through the stories of two teenage boys. The first is a 13-year old whose growth was stunted by poverty. Instead of attending school, he sells cans of oil on the black market, and has little ambition. The second survived a bombing, but was badly wounded. "This is a glass eye," he says. "I can't see with it. There's still shrapnel in my heart and I have wounds caused by shrapnel all over my body."
The Raw Story | UN report: Two million Iraqi children face disease, poverty
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Old 12-22-2007, 10:10 PM
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I hope the level of violence continues to abate....but the cost in so many ways has been so enormous...no, there is no way to validate this war for me.

But then gix always has been the big cheerleader....

I hope the Iraqi people can live in a better fashion than they have, but I believe it is up to them to make that happen. We'll see.
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Old 12-22-2007, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gixaholic View Post
In Iraq's success, Bush's vindication

'None of the American mistakes invalidate the war - any more than the Dresden bombings invalidated the fight against Hitler'
This single statement from the editorial is one of the most screwed up pieces of logic drawn through an analogy I have ever seen. One does not need to go further than just this one statement to see how wrong the guy is.

The Dresden bombing was but one strategic target in an enormous list of targets the Allies hit during WWII throughout the world. Iraq has been isolated to the political boundaries of Iraq and there are no real Allies involved and the stakes are completely different, all based on the Bush administration’s plan of how the ME should be dealt with. The two wars are just not comparable at all and there is no possible justification for the wrong instigation and horrible planning the Iraq War was based on by the Bush administration. I could say this is apples to oranges but it is more like cherries to watermelons; that is how out of whack this statement is.

I will give you a much better one:

'Americans went to war against Japan as direct effect of Pearl Harbor, where the Japanese Navy wiped out more than half of the American Pacific fleet.

George Bush went to war against Iraqi as direct effect of the 2nd WTC bombing, where Iraq had no involvement in that bombing’


The editorial is well within the definition of 'warmongering fanatic'...Gix, you fit into that quite well too.
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Old 12-23-2007, 12:01 PM
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Originally Posted by cat's meow View Post
This single statement from the editorial is one of the most screwed up pieces of logic drawn through an analogy I have ever seen. One does not need to go further than just this one statement to see how wrong the guy is.

The Dresden bombing was but one strategic target in an enormous list of targets the Allies hit during WWII throughout the world. Iraq has been isolated to the political boundaries of Iraq and there are no real Allies involved and the stakes are completely different, all based on the Bush administration’s plan of how the ME should be dealt with. The two wars are just not comparable at all and there is no possible justification for the wrong instigation and horrible planning the Iraq War was based on by the Bush administration. I could say this is apples to oranges but it is more like cherries to watermelons; that is how out of whack this statement is.

I will give you a much better one:

'Americans went to war against Japan as direct effect of Pearl Harbor, where the Japanese Navy wiped out more than half of the American Pacific fleet.

George Bush went to war against Iraqi as direct effect of the 2nd WTC bombing, where Iraq had no involvement in that bombing’


The editorial is well within the definition of 'warmongering fanatic'...Gix, you fit into that quite well too.
Like Cranky said, it is good that the violence is abating. I'm still not sure how this thing will end up....one gets the sense that we are sitting on a powder keg...but, who knows.

However, I have said the following before....it could be nothing but lolly pops and rainbows in Iraq from here on out....and the decision to go to war in 2003 and the way it was carried out still amount to monumental fuck ups....there will be no vindication for any of those clowns in my mind. If this thing works out, the soldier, the marine, and their leadership in Iraq will get and deserve 100% of the credit....not the clowns in DC.
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Old 12-23-2007, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by StormanNorman View Post
Like Cranky said, it is good that the violence is abating. I'm still not sure how this thing will end up....one gets the sense that we are sitting on a powder keg...but, who knows.

However, I have said the following before....it could be nothing but lolly pops and rainbows in Iraq from here on out....and the decision to go to war in 2003 and the way it was carried out still amount to monumental fuck ups....there will be no vindication for any of those clowns in my mind. If this thing works out, the soldier, the marine, and their leadership in Iraq will get and deserve 100% of the credit....not the clowns in DC.
You and Cat nailed it.
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Old 01-08-2008, 09:38 AM
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Why do the Democratic candidates refuse to acknowledge progress in Iraq?
Washington Post
Tuesday, January 8, 2008; A18




AT SATURDAY'S New Hampshire debate, Democratic candidates were confronted with a question that they have been ducking for some time: Can they concede that the "surge" of U.S. troops in Iraq has worked? All of them vehemently opposed the troop increase when President Bush proposed it a year ago; both Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama introduced legislation to reverse it. Now it's indisputable that the surge has drastically reduced violence. Attacks have fallen by more than 60 percent, al-Qaeda has been dealt a major blow, and the threat of sectarian civil war that seemed imminent a year ago has receded. The monthly total of U.S. fatalities in December was the second-lowest of the war.

A reasonable response to these facts might involve an acknowledgment of the remarkable military progress, coupled with a reminder that the final goal of the surge set out by President Bush -- political accords among Iraq's competing factions -- has not been reached. (That happens to be our reaction to a campaign that we greeted with skepticism a year ago.) It also would involve a willingness by the candidates to reconsider their long-standing plans to carry out a rapid withdrawal of remaining U.S. forces in Iraq as soon as they become president -- a step that would almost certainly reverse the progress that has been made.

What Ms. Clinton, Mr. Obama, John Edwards and Bill Richardson instead offered was an exclusive focus on the Iraqi political failures -- coupled with a blizzard of assertions about the war that were at best unfounded and in several cases simply false. Mr. Obama led the way, claiming that Sunni tribes in Anbar province joined forces with U.S. troops against al-Qaeda in response to the Democratic victory in the 2006 elections -- a far-fetched assertion for which he offered no evidence.

Mr. Obama acknowledged some reduction of violence, but said he had predicted that adding troops would have that effect. In fact, on Jan. 8, 2007, he said that in the absence of political progress, "I don't think 15,000 or 20,000 more troops is going to make a difference in Iraq and in Baghdad." He also said he saw "no evidence that additional American troops would change the behavior of Iraqi sectarian politicians and make them start reining in violence by members of their religious groups." Ms. Clinton, for her part, refused to retract a statement she made in September, when she said it would require "a suspension of disbelief" to believe that the surge was working.

Even more disturbing was the refusal of the Democrats to adjust their policies to the changed situation. Ms. Clinton said she didn't "see any reason why [U.S. troops] should remain beyond, you know, today" and outlined a withdrawal plan premised on a defeat comparable to Vietnam ("We have to figure out what we're going to do with the 100,000-plus American civilians who are there" and "all the Iraqis who sided with us. . . . Are we going to leave them?"). Mr. Obama stuck to his plan for "a phased redeployment"; if his scheme of a year ago had been followed, almost all American troops would be out by this March.

Ms. Clinton made one strong point: Even the relatively low number of "23 Americans dying in December is . . . unacceptable" if there is no clear prospect of eventual success. So far, the Bush administration has been slow and feckless in pressing for the national political accords it says are required for a winning outcome. If these are unachievable in the near term, the administration owes the country a revised strategy. But any U.S. policy ought to be aimed at consolidating the gains of the past year and ensuring that neither al-Qaeda nor sectarian war make a comeback. So far, the Democratic candidates have refused even to consider that challenge.
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Old 01-08-2008, 03:19 PM
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Now it's indisputable that the surge has drastically reduced violence.
This is a false statement...2007 was the bloodiest year in Iraq...and there are over 3 million Iraqis who have fled the Baghdad area...along with the insurgents who left because of the surge coming in....

When you start out with lies, you support it with lies...when you look at the truth, it shows the reality of the failure of the surge...
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Old 01-08-2008, 04:42 PM
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I think I speak for everyone when I say...


Fuck Dolphins!!!




This war makes about as much sense as killing the families of Drug Dealers to fight the drug war. God damn Kangaroos...


America can not afford this war. We do not have the military Capabilities to invade, occupy and nation build year after year. Afghanistan was a joke, Iraq was a joke.

The march of liberty gets halted in the Middle East, because Islams do not believe in it. As can be clearly shown in the worlds most monarchist societys, Islams.


Just quit preaching this just war theory. It is breaking our Government, and causing brown people to hate us more and more. The very fact we are over there give Osama a rallying cry to recruit more men to his forces.


We would object to someone invading canada and setting up a Government. They object to it over there.


Fuck Gorillas, too.
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Old 01-08-2008, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cookie Parker View Post
This is a false statement...2007 was the bloodiest year in Iraq...and there are over 3 million Iraqis who have fled the Baghdad area...along with the insurgents who left because of the surge coming in....

When you start out with lies, you support it with lies...when you look at the truth, it shows the reality of the failure of the surge...
It actually is not a false statement because you are going under the pretense that the surge started in the begining of 2007 which it obviously did not. I didn't start until the middle of the year so for the first half of 2007 you had the same failed policies that were going on.

Finally, it seems odd to me that Democrats who have actually gone over there and have seen the results of the surge firsthand have had to (reluctantly) compliment the success of our troops and General Patreaus seem to know less than you - according to you. The 3 million people you speak of seems a bit high. Where are those statistics coming from?
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