Iraq: The Calm before the Storm?

Badmutha · #21 (**permalink**) 12-19-2007, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by noneof yourbusiness

Its amazing how people will use the words of folks the claim to dispise. a FUCKIGN Comuist this is the first time somebody pulledd Giap out and iits hilarious. YOu would belive that smug son of bitch's taunts? Your crazy.

NYOB--your implying we shouldnt believe those statements by Giap? Why on earth would he lie about it? Or is it just so inconcievable to you that the greatest military in the world had rained down enough hell on the NVA to bring them to the point of submission.

We never lost a battle--and yet we lost the war

StormanNorman · #22 (**permalink**) 12-19-2007, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Badmutha

Cord read the words from a general in the North Vietnamese Army:

"What we still don't understand is why you Americans stopped the bombing of Hanoi. You had us on the ropes. If you had pressed us a little harder, just for another day or two, we were ready to surrender! It was the same at the battles of TET. You defeated us! We knew it, and we thought you knew it. But we were elated to notice your media was definitely helping us. They were causing more disruption in America than we could in the battlefields. We
were ready to surrender. You had won!" --General Giap

The US was not defeated on the battlefield--they were defeated by the liberal media on the homefront.

Hi Badmutha,

I hate to tell you this, but there is some considerable doubt that General Giap made the above statement. Can you provide a direct source for the quote from General Giap? According to the link below, there is no trace of the alleged Giap quote in any source published prior to 2004.
General Giap on How U.S. Lost the Vietnam War - Netlore Archive

And according to Clemsen history professor Edwin Moise,

Quote:

Supposedly, General Giap had written in How We Won the War that in the aftermath of the Tet Offensive of 1968, the Communist leaders in Vietnam had been ready to abandon the war, but that a broadcast by Walter Cronkite, declaring the Tet Offensive a Communist victory, persuaded them to change their minds and fight on. This rumor was entirely false. Giap had not mentioned Cronkite, and had not said the Communists had ever considered giving up on the war.

Several variants of this rumor appeared in 2004. In these, Giap is supposed to have credited either the American anti-war movement in general, or John Kerry's organization (Vietnam Veterans Against the War) in particular, for persuading the Communist leaders to change their minds and not give up on the war. Giap is sometimes said to have made this statement in How We Won the War, sometimes in an unnamed 1985 memoir. All versions of the rumor are false. Neither in How We Won the War, nor in any other book (the 1985 memoir is entirely imaginary), has Giap mentioned Kerry or Vietnam Veterans Against the War, or said that the Communist leaders had ever considered giving up on the war.

History News Network

So, Badmutha, if you can find the General's direct quote and cite it, that would make the statement more believable.

Badmutha · #23 (**permalink**) 12-19-2007, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormanNorman

Hi Badmutha,

I hate to tell you this, but there is some considerable doubt that General Giap made the above statement. Can you provide a direct source for the quote from General Giap? According to the link below, there is no trace of the alleged Giap quote in any source published prior to 2004.
General Giap on How U.S. Lost the Vietnam War - Netlore Archive

And according to Clemsen history professor Edwin Moise,

History News Network

So, Badmutha, if you can find the General's direct quote and cite it, that would make the statement more believable.

Norm--cmon--your sniping again. And Im not going to get into some big side bar debate over the legitimacy of Giap's memoirs. All I could ask Norm--if there was any doubt over what he said--do you think they still would have tatooed it on a frickin monument? Do you think Giap's statements could be true?

Besides Giap's statement--I noticed you had no additional comments--and therefore can we conclude you agreed with the rest?

noneof yourbusiness · #24 (**permalink**) 12-19-2007, 11:16 PM

I know this from what I seen of of Giap hes a smirking little bastard. Hes a commie that makes him a liar. He takes great joy in the ridiculsu assertion that somehow is command ability was a major factor in the war. I say bulllshiiiiiiit. You can lose war because of your mistakes moreso then the enemys competence. This particular quote could be part of a Swift Boat thiing. Either way Giap is no souce of legitimate facts on this thing. He cant wipe that god damn smirk off his face and he is gleefull in all his accounts.

StormanNorman · #25 (**permalink**) 12-19-2007, 11:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Badmutha

Norm--cmon--your sniping again.

No sniping here, Badmutha....just pointing out that a crucial piece in your response to Cordelier was on shaky ground.

Quote:

And Im not going to get into some big side bar debate over the legitimacy of Giap's memoirs. All I could ask Norm--if there was any doubt over what he said--do you think they still would have tatooed it on a frickin monument?

What monument? How do you or anyone know that it is "tatooed" anywhere in Vietnam? That's one of those peculiarities that makes me wonder about its validity.

Quote:

Do you think Giap's statements could be true?

Slight possiblity....but, the more I read about it (those who claimed he said it...different versions, etc.), the more and more I'm willing to call BULLSHIT. But, like I said, Badmutha, you can put this all to rest if you can find a direct citation of this quote. And I hate to tell you, Badmutha, this alleged quote is at the very crux of your viewpoint.

Quote:

Besides Giap's statement--I noticed you had no additional comments--and therefore can we conclude you agreed with the rest?

Ummm.....no. I don't think you have a very solid understanding of warfare especially irregular warfare. But, that's ok...you certainly have a right to state your opinion

noneof yourbusiness · #26 (**permalink**) 12-19-2007, 11:31 PM

I tried Dupuy but it dint have anything on it and I am sure not going to spend the astronomcal prices they want for material in the pay section. Maybe Zitterling or Dupuy himslef has something on it.

crowonapost · #27 (**permalink**) 12-19-2007, 11:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormanNorman

No sniping here, Badmutha....just pointing out that a crucial piece in your response to Cordelier was on shaky ground.

What monument? How do you or anyone know that it is "tatooed" anywhere in Vietnam? That's one of those peculiarities that makes me wonder about its validity.

Slight possiblity....but, the more I read about it (those who claimed he said it...different versions, etc.), the more and more I'm willing to call BULLSHIT. But, like I said, Badmutha, you can put this all to rest if you can find a direct citation of this quote. And I hate to tell you, Badmutha, this alleged quote is at the very crux of your viewpoint.

Ummm.....no. I don't think you have a very solid understanding of warfare especially irregular warfare. But, that's ok...you certainly have a right to state your opinion

This is my favorite line....

Circulating in various forms since the 1990s, this statement attributed to General Vo Nguyen Giap of North Vietnam is not authentic, has never been authentic, and no amount of repetition will make it so.

I'm sorry to say but this central tenant that Badmoth used is quite simply the epicenter of just about everything he posts. distortions to outright unchecked unreferenced lies.

Might as well call him BadGiapF'r.

Badmutha · #28 (**permalink**) 12-20-2007, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormanNorman

No sniping here, Badmutha....just pointing out that a crucial piece in your response to Cordelier was on shaky ground.

What monument? How do you or anyone know that it is "tatooed" anywhere in Vietnam? That's one of those peculiarities that makes me wonder about its validity.

Slight possiblity....but, the more I read about it (those who claimed he said it...different versions, etc.), the more and more I'm willing to call BULLSHIT. But, like I said, Badmutha, you can put this all to rest if you can find a direct citation of this quote. And I hate to tell you, Badmutha, this alleged quote is at the very crux of your viewpoint.

Crucial lol--not really Norman--My argument stands just fine without Giap--and I said Im not getting into a side bar debate over the legitimacy of Giap's statements. While there may not be conclusive proof that he did say it--there isnt any conclusive proof he didnt say those exact words or a variation of them. And nothing short of me resurrecting Giap and letting him tell you directly would change your mind--so why bother.

Quote:

Ummm.....no. I don't think you have a very solid understanding of warfare especially irregular warfare. But, that's ok...you certainly have a right to state your opinion

Well if there was something you strongy disagreed with(besides Giap)--Im sure you would have put your two cents in Norm--your elitism forces you to.
The US media played a major role in the US defeat in Vietnam--we dont need Giap to verify that.

StormanNorman · #29 (**permalink**) 12-20-2007, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Badmutha

Crucial lol--not really Norman--My argument stands just fine without Giap--and I said Im not getting into a side bar debate over the legitimacy of Giap's statements. While there may not be conclusive proof that he did say it--there isnt any conclusive proof he didnt say those exact words or a variation of them.

Well, Badmutha....just some friendly StormanNorman advice, don't become a professional researcher in your future....you wouldn't last long with this approach. See, you were the one doing the quoting, so the onus is on you to make sure it's legit.

Quote:

And nothing short of me resurrecting Giap and letting him tell you directly would change your mind--so why bother.

Wrong, Badmutha.....just give me a direct source. The General has written several documents/papers.
Moïse's Bibliography: Important Communist Leaders

Quote:

Well if there was something you strongy disagreed with(besides Giap)--Im sure you would have put your two cents in Norm--your elitism forces you to.
The US media played a major role in the US defeat in Vietnam--we dont need Giap to verify that.

Well, Badmutha, sometimes my elitism is over taken by my exhaustion and desire to go to bed....as was the case last night.

Badmutha · #30 (**permalink**) 12-20-2007, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormanNorman

Well, Badmutha....just some friendly StormanNorman advice, don't become a professional researcher in your future....you wouldn't last long with this approach. See, you were the one doing the quoting, so the onus is on you to make sure it's legit.

Wrong, Badmutha.....just give me a direct source. The General has written several documents/papers.
Moïse's Bibliography: Important Communist Leaders

Well, Badmutha, sometimes my elitism is over taken by my exhaustion and desire to go to bed....as was the case last night.

Norm--for the last time hopefuly--forget about Giap--if you dont think his statements are credible--fine--will that stop the whining and the sniping?

"The US media played a major role in the US defeat in Vietnam"--Badmutha (definitely not General Giap)

Do you disagree with that--if so then resume whining--otherwise MOVEON.norm