And I'm not trying to pin you in a corner, so I'll address this to all who support the invasion of Iraq....

Why? Why do you support this? What has the purpose? What has been accomplished? Should we keep a permanent military base there? Why or why not?

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When you want to know the truth, search all articles available on your topic. The truth lies somewhere between it all.

And I AM trying to pin you in a corner :-)


http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/rel...tml#post263702

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YouTube - "Under My Thumb" The Rolling Stones

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Ive seen an enemy kill my friends for no other reason but their religion and nationality.

Ive seen dead men women and children who were decapititaded simply because their father or brother was an Iraqi Soldier/Policeman/Govener.

Ive seen IED's go off in crowded marketplaces that were intentionally aimed at us yet killed many innocent.

Ive spoke to a soldier that had scars from being tortured by Saddam Hussein

Ive seen the smiles of the children as we passed out school supplys and candy.

I have seen the marketplace open up after months of being a ghost town

Ive seen the iraqi children playing "Amreeky Marine" American Marine in the streets of Ar Ramadi.

Ive seen Iraqis vote dispite the enemy threatening all thoes who visit the polls

Ive seen Iraqis Pray for our fallen marines

Ive seen the Iraqi people rat out the insurgents dispite the death threats.

Ive watched an Iraqi Soldier cry when his american friends left Iraq.

I was at the goverment center as the Iraqi govener withstood assasanation attempts and as some of his family were kidnaped and killed.

Ive seen thousands of Iraqis show up for jobs at the goverment center.

WHY WOULDENT I SUPPORT A FREE AND DEMOCRATIC IRAQ? WHY WOULDENT I WANT TO DEFEAT THESE ISLAMIC EXTREAMIST? WHY WOULD I WANT TO GIVE THEM A VICTORY?

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But would any of this have occurred if Bush would not have invaded? Can you not see maybe US soldiers are killed because over 70% of the population wants us to leave? That there are wars between tribes for which Americans cannot understand? That have been going on a lot longer than the birth of Christ?

Can you not understand that if you don't have access to chemicals, WMDs and high fire power, that when someone invades your nation and uses mercenaries to kill your people, your only defense are weapons you can make up to the killing to get rid of the invaders and occupiers? That the very REAL Iraqi Oil law for which Iraqis went on strike in protest of is another reason to remove The American occupiers from Iraq?

Can you not see the known ILLEGAL occupation by Israel of Lebanon and the West Bank..and Bush's illegal occupation of Iraq are seen as hostile attacks by Christians and Jews against Muslims?

Try another tack, Smitty...try seeing it from our actions and their responses....try that...and then come discuss more deeply your reasons more than just emotional responses....try policies and Blackwater and the Iraqi Oil Law and weapons to Saudi Sunni community and threats against Iran...

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When you want to know the truth, search all articles available on your topic. The truth lies somewhere between it all.

This is a destraction. Of course it wouldent have happend. There would be no insurgency if we had not invaded Iraq. Why? Because Saddam would have levelled entire villages if there was. But did we have the right to invade iraq? Yes. Did we have the support. Yes. Should we have taken the insurgency factor in to consideration? Yes. Has Bush made mistakes? Yes. What war has ever gone as planned?

Our soldiers killed because Americans want us out? I think your question is (why are our soldiers being killed when most Americans want us out?)

Do you think I want us to come home from Iraq? I do! But not irresponsively. Giving Al-Quieda a victory is irresponsible. Giving terrorist a safe haven is irresponsible. Giving the terrorist funding off of oil revenues is irresponsible. Hanging the iraqi people out to dry is irresponsible. We liberate people from fear and oppression. We dont hand countrys over to the oppressors. YES EVERYONE WANTS TO COME HOME! BUT WE WANT TO COME HOME RESPONSIVLY. Leaving a country in a state of terror will only result in more war later!

LOL! Its overblown and it isnt that wide spread. Do you think sunnis are fighting sunnis? Do you think Kurds are fighting kurds? Do you think Shiites are fighting Shiites? Of course not! Violence between religions only happen in areas where more than one religion exists. Thats not much of Iraq. However Baghdad falls in to this category. If you have ever been to Iraq you would know that most Iraqis are moderate and not that religious. Ive seen them eat pork MRE's after being warned that there is pork in the MRE. Ive also seen Iraqis watch porn, drink whiskey and sell whiskey. Ive even seen homosexual AND cristian Iraqis. In baghdad many women are modernised. This is evedent in the close they wear.
Pay attention to what I say here. THESE TERRORIST ARE ISLAMIC EXTREAMISTS. THEY THINK THAT WE ARE CORRUPTING THEIR CULTURE AND THE ONLY WAY TO STOP THIS IS OPPRESSING THE PEOPLE IN TO AN ISLAMIC EXTREAMIST GOVERMENT THROUGH FEAR AND TERROR. THEY ARE NOT POPULAR OR EVEN MAINSTREAM! MOST IRAQIS DISPISE THEM! MOST IRAQIS ARE MODERATES! THE IRAQI PEOPLE JUST WANT TO MAKE MONEY AND RASE THEIR CHILDREN IN PEACE. JUST LIKE YOU AND ME.

WHAT ARE YOU SAYING? SADDAM SHOULD HAVE HAD THE RIGHT TO MAKE WMD'S? If they were a peaceful law abiding free nation they would have the power that they want. But the WORLD wouldent allow a ruthless murdering dictator to illegaly use WMD's on his own people or other soverighn nations!

Are you implieing that the terrorists in Iraq are just good and gental people who are trying to defend against the ruthless oppressive Americans? Thoes terrorists are Baathist loyalists, Al-Quieda, Mujahadien, Hesbolla voulinteers, and a number of other terrorist organisations that arent as popular.
Your not trying to justify their actions are you?
Your not justifying using mosques, schools, and hospitals, as safe houses to shoot at Americans are you?
Your not justifying stuffing the bodys of dead children with explosives are you?
Your not justifying setting off IED's in crowded market places are you?
Your not justifying decapitating the families of thoes who support the new Iraqi goverment are you?
Your not justifying murdering and kidnapping the families of Iraqi goverment officials, police men, and military personell are you?

This is the way these people operate! This is the enemy that we are trying to kill. This is the guys that we dont want to run Iraq!

I dont know too much about it. Allthough I am exited that they are using a freedom that could only be given to them by America! If they want to keep it the insurgency must not be able to destroy the Iraqi democracy in our absence. Are they ready? NO!

Who is atting these Christians and Jews? Islamic extreamist! Did they do this before we invaded Iraq? Yes! Should we be at war with islamic extreamism? Yes! DO MOST MUSLIM COUNTRIES AND PEOPLE WANT DEMOCRACY? YES!

So you want me to pay attention to the bad news reported in the MEDIA as opposed to the GOOD things I have SEEN in Iraq? IT SEEMS AS THOUGH THAT YOU ARE MORE OUTRAGED BY A FEW BLACKWATER PERSONELL THAN YOU ARE OF THE ACTIONS OF 20,000 TERRORISTS. CONTRACTORS AND TROOPS THAT PURPOSLEY COMMIT ILLEGAL ACTIS WILL PAY THE PRICE. THE TERRORISTS WILL NOT!


DO YOU WANT ISLAMIC EXTREAMIST TO RUN IRAQ? IF YES HOW WILL THAT AFFECT THE SECURITY OF AMERICA AND OUR ALLYS?

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Cookie please read this. And try not to take offense to my comments on liberals.

How insurgency/terrorism works

To better know the situation in Iraq you must know how the enemy operates. The problem is that those who oppose the war in Iraq know completely nothing about our enemies, there motivation, or how they operate.

Terrorism: The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

1) The Insurgent Distraction: Insurgents create as much death destruction and chaos as possible to make Iraq undesirable for the Coalition Forces. This makes the war unpopular and reflects in the people of democracy ran nations electing Anti War candidates. When the anti war candidates win they will push to pull forces out of Iraq and then the enemy’s mission is accomplished.

2) IED’s: Terrorists Use IED's "Improvised Explosive Devices" to attack an enemy that they can’t fight face to face in the streets. They do this with a complete disregard to civilian casualties! The civilian casualties will just make America look worse because the Anti War Left will blame the civilian casualties on the troops! This will make the war more unpopular for Coalition forces. They hide these IED’s in highway medians, fruit crates at marketplaces, parked cars, bicycles, buried under the road, corpses of dead children/animals/people, and many more places. It would be impossible to name them all.

3) Manipulating the Innocent through Murder: If someone joins the Iraqi Military, Police Force, or Government it often results in great danger for their families. Many Advocates of democracy are kidnapped and murdered every day in Iraq. As if targeting the Iraqi forces and government officials aren’t enough they try to spread fear and terror by murdering their families. This will instill fear in those who want to contribute to the new Iraqi democracy and make them not want to participate. This will also make the war unpopular for coalition forces because the far left will not only blame the troops for the murdered civilians, but they will use the terror caused by the enemy to try to prove that Iraq is making no process. The truth is that Iraq is making overwhelming progress in the face of a ruthless enemy that not only threatens them but their families as well.

4) Manipulating Government Officials through Terror: Terrorists hold the Families of Government Officials hostage to enforce their will on the politicians. If the politicians tell anyone it will result in death for their loved ones.

5) Manipulating the Economy/Government through Terror: Terrorists use suicide bombers and suicide VBIED's "Vehicle Born IED's" to blow up Army recruiting stations, Election Polls, and Job Fairs. This interrupts the democratic process and the Iraqi economy. Once again they have a complete disregard for civilian casualties, which isn’t really a problem for them because our troops will get stuck with the blame overseas as well as in their home country by the far left.

6) Deep Insurgency: Terrorists often try to get recruited as an Iraqi Police man or Soldier. That way they can infiltrate and sabotage any effort to stop the insurgency. This also acts as a way to gather intelligence.

7) Using The American Media: Terrorists watch American news. When an American claims that Bush is going to war for oil, Halliburton, Torturing Muslims, they use it as propaganda so they can recruit more insurgents. They also use the media to find out how well their operations are creating dissent among the American people. Propaganda is more credible for them when it comes from Americans! The Anti War Left knows this!

8) Using poverty against the innocent: Terrorists often use the Iraqi's poverty against our troops. They pay those who need money to feed their families, to fire rockets at Coalition Forces.

9) Capturing U.S. Forces/People: When a terrorist captures an American they usually will ceremoniously behead the “infidel” on TV and display it to the world. This will instill fear and make the war less popular!

10) Hiding Weapons: Terrorists hide weapons and explosives in civilian yards. If the civilians move them or tell the American Forces about them it will result in death for them and their families! If the weapons are found the coalition forces will usually arrest the innocent Iraqis not the terrorists. This makes the American Forces extremely unpopular.

11) Propaganda: Terrorists put propaganda up and around mosques. “Especially during religious holidays.” They use computer graphics and imaging to make it look like Coalition forces are murdering innocent Iraqis. Remember that they need to make it look as though America is waging a war against innocent Iraqi Muslims! You Tube is also used as a great tool for spreading enemy propaganda! They can quote anti war politicians in an effort to prove to their men that America is just here for Oil and Profit.

12) Starting A Civil War: Terrorists will murder a Sunni family or Bomb a Sunni mosque in a city that has both Sunni and Shiite people. Afterwards they will leave Shiite propaganda behind. This will incite violence between tribes. They also wear black masks so no one will know who they are. This makes it look as though there is a civil war in Iraq. The anti war left will use this to advocate withdraw from Iraq. In actuality the enemy could care less how many of what religion they kill. This is evident in their total disregard to human life when planting IED’s.

13) Funding through Thievery: Terrorists will make the local businesses pay them so they can fund their men. If the businessmen don’t comply the terrorists will kill them and burn there business down!

14) Manipulating the Left: America’s largest weakness is the Anti War Liberal. The more unpopular that terrorist make this war look the more popular the anti war libs will become. If enough anti war libs get elected they will force American troops to withdraw from Iraq. Then the insurgent mission is accomplished! Iraq will be forced to live and die under an Islamic extremist oppressive government. Then Al-Qaeda will claim victory and use this momentum to recruit more terrorists and destroy more Americans with an oil funded terrorist Army/Organization.

15) Manipulating An Election: Terrorists will always create as much violence as possible before an American election takes place. They know that violence in Iraq makes Democrats more popular. A Democrat majority in America will help the terrorists accomplish there goal of ridding Iraq of American troops! It’s a win win situation. The terrorists win and get to continue to kill Americans and the Democrats get power over the American people.

16) Using Children to Kill: Terrorists know that U.S. forces wont fire on a little girl on the side of the road. So they use them to detonate IED’s. They will also use them to make sure the surrounding area is clear of American Forces before moving men and weapons from one place to another.

17) Using Buildings That Americans Can’t Shoot At: Terrorists will set off IED’s and Fire at U.S. Forces from buildings that are no fire zones for our troops. Hospitals, Mosques, Children’s Schools, and crowded Market Places are all places where the enemy can use to get away with killing Americans.

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Thanks, Smitty. I think I can see where your focus is on and understand better where you are coming from.

You know I disagree and you know that I feel that Bush is no less a terrorists for imprisoning without right to charges, attorney and trial persons picked up from $5,000 bounties in Iraq and ANYONE the government has not charged with a crime; as well as sending and kidnapping persons from other countries.

I also feel Bush has committed a high crime with his invasion into IRaq and the illega occupation. Especially with all the money made by those around him and so much theft gone unaccounted for.

However, I also know that my sources are not believable by you and your sources not by me. For this, I think we can't discuss this issue. However, I want to thank you for letting me see where you are coming from and the passion of your beliefs. Humans are nothing, in my mind, if they have not passion for what they believe in.

Maybe we'll find a topic we can discuss, Smitty...until then, thanks so much for just being open. Given my past behavior with you, you certainly were not obligated at all to do that...but I thank you so for taking the time to do it...and being so honest...and passionate.

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When you want to know the truth, search all articles available on your topic. The truth lies somewhere between it all.

YOU DISAGREE BECAUSE YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND WAR

AND HAVE BEEN PROGRAMMED BY THE MEDIA TO HATE WAR.

Live Search: GLORIA STEINEM FEMINISM THE CIA and OPERATION MOCKINGBIRD

YOU RALLY WANT TO END WAR ??????????????????????
FIGHT THE MEDIA..,.........NOT ME OR EACH OTHER :-)


CLASS ACTION LAWSUIT AGAINST CIA/MEDIA VIOLATION OF FIRST AMENDMENT-RIGHT TO A FREE PRESS Petition

OR DO YOU THINK LIKE CROW AND OCEAN...........ITS OK TO LIE

Smitty, I couldnt have said any of that better. Im in Baghdad now and I gotta tell ya, for a city thats supposedly the most dangerous in the world in the middle of a country thats supposedly ravaged by civil war, its extremely quiet. I havent seen a single IED, weapons cache, I havent received small arms or RPG fire, and I havent even as much as fired a warning shot.

The national police here are doing most of the work these days, making our lives a lot easier then the last time I was here. Most of the time when we search homes the locals bring us chai and sodas and flat bread. Doesnt sound like a place thats descended into chaos as those on the left desperately try to portray.

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The American people will never knowingly adopt Socialism. But under the name of liberalism they will adopt every fragment of the Socialist program, until one day America will be a Socialist nation, without knowing how it happened.

Norman Thomas

PLEASE don't bring reality into the equation. It does muddle the Liberal mind.

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