Thread: The Truth About Iraq II

Originally Posted by Smitty0311

So what part of what you said above is a good reason not to accomplish our mission in Iraq? Weather you hate this war or not we still need to accomplish the mission! See here>>> http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/246727-post6.html

Now that you've listed all of the lovely reasons for invasion & occupation could you please give us a nice lengthy list of what a stable democratic governement would look like in Iraq? Or how that would be implemented?

Could you break down the judiciary & legislative branches?
Being that without a strong rule of law & the force to back it there will never be ANY real stability in Iraq.

Being that both previously & now definitely currently the region of Iraq is considered the most corrupt economic system in the world, how would you go about cleaning that up so there is economic clarity & transparency?

How would you go about making sure all the different religious, ethnic & tribal groups would get fair representation?

Does finishing the job have anything to do with these & if so what's involved?
Will kick ass no name taking Marines be the ones who will do all this?

Incidentally you know the Marine Core wants to leave Iraq all together & put all their efforts into Afghanistan right?

Originally Posted by crowonapost

Now that you've listed all of the lovely reasons for invasion & occupation could you please give us a nice lengthy list of what a stable democratic governement would look like in Iraq? Or how that would be implemented?

Could you break down the judiciary & legislative branches?
Being that without a strong rule of law & the force to back it there will never be ANY real stability in Iraq.

Being that both previously & now definitely currently the region of Iraq is considered the most corrupt economic system in the world, how would you go about cleaning that up so there is economic clarity & transparency?

How would you go about making sure all the different religious, ethnic & tribal groups would get fair representation?

Does finishing the job have anything to do with these & if so what's involved?
Will kick ass no name taking Marines be the ones who will do all this?

Incidentally you know the Marine Core wants to leave Iraq all together & put all their efforts into Afghanistan right?

Sounds like a problem that the Iraqis are going to work out. They will need to find some common ground and form their own goverment like we have. And we all know that they want democracy. See here>>The Truth About Iraq II And we know that its in our best interest. See here>> http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/246727-post6.html And we know that political Improvement is taking place in Iraq. Ever so slowley but it is! See here> http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/246729-post8.html And thanks to us they have the rising economy to implement it! See here> http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/246728-post7.html How easy we forget that it took 8 years to win the American Revolution and 11 years ratify our own constitution. But your expect Iraq to have it done tommarrow?

Originally Posted by Smitty0311

Sounds like a problem that the Iraqis are going to work out. They will need to find some common ground and form their own goverment like we have. And we all know that they want democracy. See here>>The Truth About Iraq II And we know that its in our best interest. See here>> http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/246727-post6.html And we know that political Improvement is taking place in Iraq. Ever so slowley but it is! See here> http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/246729-post8.html And thanks to us they have the rising economy to implement it! See here> http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/246728-post7.html How easy we forget that it took 8 years to win the American Revolution and 11 years ratify our own constitution. But your expect Iraq to have it done tommarrow?

We through self determination CHOSE to do it.

Iraq never Chose a new government. It was chosen for them.
All people want to be free of tyrants but people who know nothing else don't know what they want & don't have an internal will as a unified nation are I'm afraid not sustaining.

So for us to finish the job would be logically to just turn Iraq into the 51st State.

I mean since we broke it & all.

oops.

Eh let's go to Iran.

oops broke it too.

looks like the 52nd State.

Originally Posted by crowonapost

We through self determination CHOSE to do it.

Iraq never Chose a new government. It was chosen for them.
All people want to be free of tyrants but people who know nothing else don't know what they want & don't have an internal will as a unified nation are I'm afraid not sustaining.

So for us to finish the job would be logically to just turn Iraq into the 51st State.

I mean since we broke it & all.

oops.

Eh let's go to Iran.

oops broke it too.

looks like the 52nd State.

More distractions? You say that Iraqis dont want democracy? See here> The Truth About Iraq II It looks to me that the obviously dont want to go back to another ruthless dictator. So anyway how is it in our best interest to pull out of Iraq prematurely?

Originally Posted by Smitty0311

5)Myth: Iraqis don’t want democracy
An ABC Poll that was conducted in Iraq 2007 shows completely the opposite. Most Iraqis want democracy and who are we to leave them without one? Iraq had a higher registered voter turn out than the United States. If that doesn’t send a message loud and clear throughout the world then nothing does. 70% of Iraqis voted during the election despite the bomb threats, which tells me that they don’t take their new democracy for granted. The insurgents on the other hand view free elections as a threat to the oppressive Islamic government that they want to install if America should leave too early. This is why we should maintain a presence in Iraq until the Iraqis can protect themselves.



70% voter turnout
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/22/in...st/22iraq.html
Votes prove stronger than bullets in Iraqi elections
DefenseLink News Article: Votes Prove Stronger Than Bullets in Iraqi Elections
Heighten security enables a higher voter turnout
Heightened Iraq security enables high voter turnout
Voter turnout in Iraq
U.S. Lauds Voter Turnout in Iraq
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Originally Posted by Smitty0311

More distractions? You say that Iraqis dont want democracy? See here> The Truth About Iraq II It looks to me that the obviously dont want to go back to another ruthless dictator. So anyway how is it in our best interest to pull out of Iraq prematurely?

The path of debunking 101. When talking points wither under factual scrutiny.

Maybe you should ask Bush about that.
Democracy In Iraq Not A Priority in U.S. Budget


Hijacking Democracy in Iraq

The official results of the Jan. 30, 2005 elections are in. The Shi'a emerged as the big winners, grabbing 48 percent of the vote, followed by the Kurds who garnered 26 percent, and Prime Minister Iyad Allawi's coalition party netting a paltry 13 percent. Behind the scenes political infighting rages as the victorious political parties vie to get their candidates positioned in the new government. On the surface, this looks like the sometimes messy aftermath of democracy; squabbling, rhetoric, and posturing. The Iraqi elections have been embraced almost universally as a great victory for the forces of democracy, not only in Iraq, but throughout the entire Middle East. The fact, however, is that the Iraqi elections weren't about the free election of a government reflecting the will of the Iraqi people, but the carefully engineered selection of a government that would behave in a manner dictated by the United States. In Iraq, democracy was hijacked by the Americans.

Still no self determination going on.
You have been officially DEBUNKED.

Originally Posted by Smitty0311

Sounds like a problem that the Iraqis are going to work out.

Correct, they have to fix it, we can't. Time to pack up and come home.

And we all know that they want democracy.

Oh really? I'm sure some do, but which ones? The ones that are in positions of authority over there don't seem to like it all that much...

And we know that political Improvement is taking place in Iraq. Ever so slowley but it is!

Maybe.....

And thanks to us they have the rising economy to implement it!

Debatable.

How easy we forget that it took 8 years to win the American Revolution and 11 years ratify our own constitution. But your expect Iraq to have it done tommarrow?

But we started our own revolution....big difference. People in general don't do well with someone coming in from the outside and forcing a system on them....

Originally Posted by Heckler

Correct, they have to fix it, we can't. Time to pack up and come home.

Do you honestly think Iraq can sustain Itself if we left now?

[QUOTE=Heckler;246792]

Originally Posted by Heckler

Oh really? I'm sure some do, but which ones? The ones that are in positions of authority over there don't seem to like it all that much...

Didnt I post this allready? Did you even read this thread? Probalie not!


[QUOTE=Heckler;246792] Maybe.....[QUOTE=Heckler;246792]

See Here>> http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/246729-post8.html

[QUOTE=Heckler;246792] Debatable.[QUOTE=Heckler;246792]

Here Study Up!

http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/246728-post7.html
http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/p...icyFocus50.pdf
http://www3.brookings.edu/fp/saban/iraq/index.pdf
Iraq Electricity Production at Alltime High
https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...k/geos/iz.html

Originally Posted by Heckler

But we started our own revolution....big difference. People in general don't do well with someone coming in from the outside and forcing a system on them....

THEY TRIED TO START THEIR OWN REVOLUTION. SADDAM GASSED THE PISS OUT OF THEM!

No you just want to give them to an enemy that wants to enforce islamic extreamism, murder, torture, and tyrany on them? It looks to me like the violence is going down. The Iraqis want democracy. they are taking charge. See here>>http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/246733-post11.html
http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/246733-post11.html
Sharp drop seen in US deaths in Iraq - Yahoo! News
Violent deaths in Iraq down in August
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071001...l_071001122629
ABC News: Reversal of Fortune? US and Civilian Deaths in Iraq Down for 2nd Month
Deaths in Iraq down in October
Hot Air » Blog Archive » Violence in Iraq down 70%
Non-combat deaths in Iraq drop - USATODAY.com

This is nonesence comong from you. Its illegal whomever voted for it. This is nothing but Rush Limbaugh rhetoric. Your fanatic bullshit isnt a military position. Its a fucking fanatic Right wing one.

This is the same person as Gix..IMO

The Rape of Iraq

By DIANE CHRISTIAN

Let's stop using the word war to describe our action in Iraq. While it is terribly true that we are killing and maiming and destroying and being killed and maimed and morally destroyed we should shelve the word war. It constructs a righteous cause and compels a rhetoric of winning. Winning sets figures of contest and domination and triumph and prevailing victory and honoring those who died in the cause, "We are committed to winning. It is our only course," says Cheney.

'Iraqi Freedom' was not a righteous war but a preemptive attack rationalized on faulty ideas, imaginations, and greed. Better to think of it as rape.

We raped Iraq. We began our action with forced, non-consensual penetration and despoilation of that country. Our Vice President publically imagined they wanted us and would welcome us, would love us and our intentions. Guilt followed, and more delusion, and stubborn refusal to admit the action. So stopping the rape, getting out, is where the figure flags. Rather than withdrawing and taking a shower, we've continued the rape and recast the story.

Our story now is that we're waging a war on terror and evil in Iraq a sufficiently abstract story to distract us from the ongoing rape of Iraq.

Rape stories may be instructive.

In Genesis Shechem the Canaanite rapes Dinah, Jacob's daughter, and seeks to marry her. Dinah's brothers require circumcision, so he consents to circumcision for himself and his people to promote intermarriage and property alliances. While he's healing, Dinah's brothers kill him and his people, "and plundered the city in reprisal for Dinah's defilement." Jacob disapproves, but the brothers say noone treats our sister like that. The story says kin remember and will avenge.

Another biblical story of King David's children makes that same point and an additional one. Amnon rapes his half-sister Tamar and is killed by her full brother Absalom. After Amnon rapes her he hates her as in Shakespeare's phrase about lust 'past reason hunted, past reason hated.' The story shows the trope eroticize, rape, blame the victim, perish.

Rape stories don't usually end well. The rapist is a brute and often a deceiver, not a successful romancer. Rape cannot force love or alliance. How then can we forge honor from the Iraq story? Staying the course seems honorable to many, like taking responsibility, fixing what you broke. But rape cannot be fixed by force. It is stubbornness, willful pride, pure error to compound the violation.

Some, like Henry Kissinger, say victory is our only option. They cling to the figure of war and winning. The story for them is not about Iraq but about our loss of face and power. Which means that rape, like torture and terror, remains our strategy. Which means we are caught in the compulsion of our action and unable to break free. Until we can't anymore keep up the rape.

Americans seem blind to the brutality of violent action but super-sensitive to sexual acts. So perhaps the rape analogy might penetrate the obdurate callous war story we perpetrated and persist in. Rape is harder to spin, closer to skin, ugly. Accurate.

No face-saving fiction is credible now. We need to face our face as rapist and despoiler and change it. However well-meaning and heroic we might wish to appear, intentions cannot transform the actions of barbarism and terror.

Rape is a love story only for sociopaths.

Originally Posted by Smitty0311

Do you honestly think Iraq can sustain Itself if we left now?

Iraq was there before us, and will be there after we leave. YES.

[/QUOTE]
Didnt I post this allready? Did you even read this thread? Probalie not!
[/QUOTE]

Well then we agree that Democracy is not a universally sought after form of government by Iraqi's. Hell, even your poll shows that.

However, it is the claim you make in your posts, that "Iraq" wants Democracy.