Ok, lets parse this a bit.

>The only way we could invade a country is by claiming to "liberate" it or "make it safe for democracy." <

There is a 29 point Declaration of War passed by the US Congress and signed by the President. Nowhere in that Declaration does anyone say anything about establishing a democratic government to liberate the people.

>If you followed at all what happened in the Cold War you would have seen that when we did stuff like this it was by buying off the leaders with tons of cash. <

The cold war ended 19 years ago.

>In places like Iran, Gautamala, Chili it was easy, we just installed right wing dictators, but when our troops are dying its tougher, we have to be fighting for a higher ideal.<

I think that Iran is the only place the US did that, and it was Royalty, not dictatorship, and it was 53 years ago.

I am surprised that someone who considers themself 'progressive' keeps living in the past. That is the job of conservatives.

Poor argument. Here's why. How many Americans do you think actual;ly read that? Few probably. Now, how many Americans heard Bush, Rice, Rummy and the rest say we were going to establish democray and liberate the Iraqis? Lots.

Ok?

Americans, as well as Iraqis want the US troops out of Iraq.

I do not understand the purpose of this post?

__________________
Victory in Iraq

Review the history of Vietnam.
Review the history of Korea.
Review the history of Cuba.
Review the history of the Philippines.

And the best one is Palestine. A wonderful example of the US and the UN imposing "democracy" on a people while systematically denying the Palestinian people, who had been born and lived in Palestine through multiple occupations just as their parents and grandparents had, any say in the "democracy imposed on them, a "democracy" that rejects their legitimacy as citizens of that "democracy."

The difference between the "terrorists" attacking the British in Palestine and the "terrorists" attacking the British in Iraq is that the "terrorists" attacking the British in Palestine were "foreign fighters" that came from Europe, while in Iraq, the "terrorists" are Iraqis. The US supported the "foreign fighters" and "terrorists" in the name of democracy in 1948, and now six decades later, the US is being faced with the reality that the US failed to install its "foreign fighters" as a "legitimate" government in Iraq.

Ask yourself this: Who is more of a legitimate Iraqi leader of Iraqis: Muqtada al-Sadr or Ahmed Chalabi?

If you think the Bush administration's view that Chalabi should have any leadership in Iraq, then you must think Arnold Schwarzenegger should be president of Austria because Arnold lived longer in Austria than Chalabi has lived in Iraq.

Clearly the Bush administration point of view is that Sadr can't be part of the Iraqi government because he is too Iraqi and too determined to have Iraqis determine the government of Iraq in opposition to the US view of who should govern Iraq. Saddam has had more support from the US government by far as the leader of Iraq than the US has given Iraqis like Sadr.

I tell you, Patriot is a genious, ain't he?

__________________
Ijustshitinmypants

AWE's Masterdebator 2008

http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/war...tml#post579888

The best thing about debating a liberal is watching them spin after you wack 'em!

Some photos Bush wouldh"t like you to see..
All this to serve Israel...

THE REAL FACE OF WAR

Then you look on another thread and you see this. Somebody' sfull of shit. Gee, you think it could be Patriot?




Why Iraqis Back McCain
GLOBAL VIEW
By BRET STEPHENS
June 17, 2008

However it turns out for John McCain this fall -- and so far he's running his general election campaign the way Gen. Ricardo Sanchez ran counterinsurgency ops -- the Arizona Republican is sure to carry at least one battleground state by a landslide. That state is called Iraq.

Last week, the Pew Research Center released the results of a survey of more than 24,000 people in 24 countries. Result: From Japan to Tanzania to Germany to Russia, the world has "more confidence" in Barack Obama than in his Republican rival to "do the right thing regarding world affairs."

But Pew did not poll Iraqis, whose opinions about the choice America makes should weigh at least as heavily with us as the collective wisdom of, say, Brazil. Whom would they prefer as the next U.S. president?

Constraints of time and money being what they are, I have not gotten round to phoning 1,000 Iraqis to get their views on Obama-McCain. But I did sit down last week with four key provincial Iraqi leaders, Sunnis and Shiites, who -- without actually endorsing Mr. McCain -- made their views abundantly clear.

"The Iraqis are really fearful about some of the positions the Democratic Party has adopted," says Sheik Ahmed Abu Rishah. "If the Democrats win, they will be withdrawing their forces in a very rapid manner."

Mamoun Sami Rashid al-Alawi, the governor of Anbar province, agrees. "We have over a million casualties, thousands of houses destroyed," he says. "Are we going to tell [Iraqis] that the game is over? That the Americans are pulling out?"

Messrs. Abu Rishah and Awani, both Sunni, have possibly the toughest political jobs on the planet. Sheik Abu Rishah inherited the leadership of the Iraq Awakening movement when his brother was killed by al Qaeda last September. Gov. Awani's immediate predecessor was kidnapped and killed by insurgents, and he has survived more than a score of assassination attempts.

Today, the governor speaks with a mixture of confidence and foreboding. He insists al Qaeda has been vanquished. But, he adds, "Iraq is in a strategic location and has huge resources. There are a lot of eyes on Iraq." Later in the conversation, he makes his point more precisely. "Liberating Iraq is a very good dish. And now you are going to hand it over to Iran?"

A sense of incredulity hangs over the way Iraqis see the U.S. political debate taking shape. The governor tells a moving story about their visit to Walter Reed hospital, where they were surprised to find smiles on the faces of GIs who had lost limbs. "The smile is because they feel they have accomplished something for the American people."

But the Iraqis came away with a different impression in Chicago, where they had hoped to meet with Mr. Obama but ended up talking to a staff aide. "We noticed there was a concentration on the negatives," the governor recalls. "The Democrat kept saying that Americans have committed a lot of mistakes. Yes, that's true, but why don't you concentrate on what the Americans have achieved in Iraq?"

The Iraqis are even more incredulous about Mr. Obama's willingness to negotiate with Iran, which they see as a predatory regime. "Do you Americans forget what the Iranians did to your embassy?" asks the governor. "Don't you know that Ahmadinejad was one of [the hostage takers]?"

Here Hussein Ali al-Shalan, a Shiite from Diwaniyah in southern Iraq, offers a view. "For a long time, Iran has felt like Iraq is theirs. Our fear [about U.S. negotiations with Iran] is, you will be giving them something that we believe would prolong our agony. We are not against Iran. We have to coexist and work toward our mutual interests. The question is, is this possible at this stage? That's why we need the army to give a final push so the Iraqis can feel the fruits of our democracy."

It's not just Iran. "There is no other country that supports us," says Gov. Awani. "What is happening in Iraq scares everyone," by which he means the neighboring autocracies that have something to fear from a successful democratic model in their midst.

That only makes America's ambivalence toward its democratic creation that much stranger to the Iraqis. Will the next administration abandon both its principles and its friends in the region? For what?

The administration and the Iraqi government are now wrangling over a status-of-forces agreement -- evidence that Iraq has reached a point where it can once again act like a sovereign nation. But the Iraqis leave no doubt that they want a deal, not least "so Iraq would be able to protect U.S. interests in the region," as Sheik Abu Rishah puts it. Having lost 4,100 Americans for Iraq, the Iraqis are offering to return the sacrifice -- assuming only that the alliance endures.

Throughout our interview, the men did not stop fingering their prayer beads, as if their future hinges on their ability to make their case to the American public. They're right: It does. Which is why Iraq, all but alone among the nations, will be praying for a McCain victory on the first Tuesday in November.

__________________
Ijustshitinmypants

AWE's Masterdebator 2008

http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/war...tml#post579888

The best thing about debating a liberal is watching them spin after you wack 'em!

Nice to hear someone tell it as it is/was, instead of the usual faux patriotic bullshit and bluster, Mulp.

For 70 years hundred of millions of people were enslaved and murdered by the satanic "Carmmies". During all this time, all SUPPOSED democracy loving and delivering Americans did was kick a few piss weak Carmmie Mini Me's around while studiously ignoring the 2 tonne Russian bear in their bed room.

Even now, with Russia still in a relative military shambles, you never hear the Recliner Rangers on AWE, or their equally bucket-mouthed but genetically gutless* leaders up on Capitalist Hill, wanting to "free" Russia - or anyone else who can fight back for that matter.

* You can't put a spine into a Lowland Scottish "Souper," i.e. those "Scotch Irish" race traitors who lorded it over their prostrated fellow Ulster Celts for their English masters. The sole forte of these Pommie loving Presbyterian control freaks has ALWAYS been kicking the cold corpses, that some braver man killed, and bragging how brave and "saved" they are.

__________________
“Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." - George Bernard Shaw

East Timor's blood, Australia's oil.

Today, East Timor is the poorest state in Asia. It could be one of the wealthiest. The reason is oil.

by Jeffrey Smith and David Webster August 25, 2003

Four years ago this month, East Timor voted for independence following a quarter-century of brutal foreign occupation. Invaded and occupied by Indonesia in 1975, it finally took its place as the first independent state of the new century. Whether that independence will be secure depends on an economic question: who will control the offshore oil of the Timor Sea?

Today, East Timor is the poorest state in Asia. It could be one of the wealthiest. The reason is oil: billions of barrels in untapped reserves in the Timor Sea. But the ownership of that oil is in dispute. The international community once again holds the key to East Timor's fate.

One of the main countries that sold out East Timor in the past is Australia. Today it is doing much the same thing in a battle over ownership of East Timor's offshore oil.

Petroleum revenues, says East Timor's Prime Minister Mari Alkatiri, “will finance our future and allow us to wean ourselves gradually from the generosity of international donors.” The country's budget now relies heavily on foreign aid. Oil offers a way out: offshore reserves in the Timor Sea are worth as much as $30-billion (U.S.) over the next 30 years. East Timor need not continue to be the poorest country in Asia, a ward of donor states; it can be self-sufficient based on wise use of oil revenues.

But the power to decide lies not in East Timor, but in Australia. And Australia is playing hardball with its smaller neighbour. “We are very tough,” Foreign Minister Alexander Downer told Alkatiri. “We will not care if you give information to the media. Let me give you a tutorial in politics — not a chance.”

The Aussie arrogance is disgusting and evil.

More reasons to hate Aussies.

The Iraqi people hate Australians for pulling out of Iraq and supporting the Al Qaida.

Aussies have ruined their reputation around the world and are hated.

__________________
Victory in Iraq

No, it's worse than that WoW. America's lickspittle little Aussie lapdog is guarding YOUR oil from the Indonesians under direct order from Waspington.

Do yourself a favour and acquaint yourself with some of the facts of the East Timor oil rip-off before you, as usual, uninformedly shoot your mouth off.

Otherwise I totally agree with you. We play a Jack Elam-like deputy sherrif that does the dirty work for the Seppo's in South East Asia and the South Pacific.

I am utterly fucking disgusted how we suck Seppo arse for the miserly leavings from our master's table .

__________________
“Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it." - George Bernard Shaw