The question I have is: Why is it called "intelligence"? It hardly seems there has been an abundance of reliable information to stop terrorism or even the war in Iraq. Our own police detectives use forms of torture to obtain confessions from suspects (sleep deprivation, filling one up with beverages then not allowing one to go to the bathroom, and we all know the old "good cop", "bad cop" routine). And those are examples of torture not condemned by judges. War is not fair.... Torture happens on all sides, the difference is, thanks to the Media and technology readily available to the public, we know about it.

Well, I'm not saying they were tortured and I'm not saying they weren't, because I don't know for sure and neither does anyone else here.

What I do know is that nearly every one of these people we capture and release "claims" they were horribly tortured. They are never wearing uniforms when captured fighting, so they also claim they are innocent civilians caught up in a war they didn't ask for.

The so-called Iranian diplomat that was returned to Iran the other day claimed the same thing, that Americans tortured him. He even showed some old scars claiming they were a result of torture at the hands of American troops in Iraq. The only problem is, he was never held by Americans and the Iraqi government has confirmed that; so the man is a bald face liar. But I guarantee sometime down the road someone will pull out the images of his scars and claim we tortured him.

Flip to the other side of the coin though and watch the videos of the British troops who were captured by Iran inside Iraqi waters and then read and listen to how they were separated for days, held in confinement, blindfolded and forced to listen to weapons being cocked to convince them that they were all about to be shot. Everything they describe can be seen on their faces in those videos. So where is the outrage?

People are too busy sitting around here in self-loathing outrage, going on and on about how horrible we are to ever consider the possibility that we aren't as horrible as they're claiming we are. And it seems that the Geneva Convention rules of war are only dragged out of the trash bin for use when condemning our own.

1st of all, I didn't mean this thread as a US vs. Them thread. I would like to take a look at the intelligence used by the US to combat terrorism. If we don't use reliable forms of intelligence, how are we going to honestly combat terrorism? How can we best improve intelligence, so that we are not just boxing at shadows?

As far as "self-loathing" outrage, well, you do realise that everytime you compare the US to some country you consider as low lifes, that you lower the greatness of this country?

Perhaps one way to improve intel would be (and I'm just throwing this out there) would be to pay better attention to the world around us. Recruit agents that are fluent and can blend in to other nations' cultures. Get them on the inside. I remember after 9/11 hearing how even when messages of interest were intercepted, there were simply not enough agents fluent in the needed languages, to accurately translate them quickly enough. I also remember that there were messages deciphered and translated that now, as an afterthought, should have been given much more serious consideration. And I don't know how we are to clean up that particular mess...seems most of these situations, in the beginning, are judgement calls (as how much attention should be paid). And we can always point the finger after the fact.

I agree that we need intelligence people that are fluent in other languages/cultures. I believe this is the first step. I also believe that we need ways to interpret the importance of that intelligence.

The fact that you believe all this intelligence was "unreliable" and that it was so because it was obtained through torture makes it evident that you believe all these claims. I don't. Nor do I believe that all the intelligence that has been dubbed "unreliable" has actually been proven as such. And please spare me the reports; I've read through and studied all of them and there is simply no way to know who lied before, who lied after and who's lying now. The reports coming out of Washington DC (regardless of who is in POWER) are little more than politic agenda's written to convince the masses that "we are the good guys and they are the bad ones; so vote for us."
Only in the eyes of those who are self-loathing and those who relish in it.

Freedom, yes we need people in place, on the ground, that understand the culture and language of indvidual countries. In regards to 9-11, when someone asked for flying lessons, but doesn't want to learn to take off or land, should have sent signals up and down the goverment.

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An informed voter scares the Goverment lackeys.

An American first and always a Conservative.

The fact that I don't wish to see this country become the very things with hate in others, doesnt make me self-loathing. It means that I believe in the greatness of this country.

There aren't individuals with any accountability, making the judgement calls, as to when to pay attention. I would have thought it would have been the responsibility of these flight schools to ring the bell to the government about these students (terrorists) learning to fly but nevermind landing. Unless of course, they want more FAA regulation in how they conduct business. That is a major issue for National Security...speak up when things don't look right!! This is why the Patriot Act was implemented and then misused. People in America have become so complacent and left unprepared and NOW have to worry about things like consequences of wrongly accusing someone of ill works....We have become afraid to tell....This just opens us up to more Government Big Brother rules.

Rob, I agree. And despite how this thread is turning out, I would like to point something out on what I believe. 9/11 didn't happen in just a few short months. It was planned for years. Maybe there were more warning signs toward the end that should have been heeded, but that doesn't change the fact that it was a two admin. problem (maybe even longer).

9/11 was allowed to happen, IN PART, because the government and it's citizens were lulled into thinking that something like that couldn't happen on American soil, despite evidence to the contrary.

I believe, that despite 9/11, we still suffer with "it can't happen here" again, and that scares the hell out of me. We need better intelligence, and we need to pay attention.