Nationalism, Not Islam, Motivates Most Suicide Terrorists

gixaholic · #11 (**permalink**) 09-08-2006, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George O Well

''Prior to America's invasion in March 2003, Iraq had never experienced a suicide bombing in its history.''

>>>THAT'S interesting.

You god dam liberals get cought on these talking points it's like a god dam broken record.

How about this george and this probably never even crossed your mind. So when you read please sit back and think about this very point.

Prior to America's invasion in march 2003, 25 million people lived under a tyranical dictator and now are free.

Now before your brain farts think about it.

sour_claw · #12 (**permalink**) 09-08-2006, 11:21 AM

An interesting report this week. Scary:

Britons threaten Muslim beheadings in footage
Daniel Foggo, London
September 04, 2006

FAR-RIGHT extremists have adopted the tactics of Islamic jihadis by posting videos on the internet in which they threaten to behead British Muslims.
The films show balaclava-clad white British men brandishing guns, knives and clubs, calling on all Muslims to leave Britain or be killed. One appears to be a soldier who has served in the Gulf.

In one film, a man tells Muslims to "go home" or risk being burned alive. He threatens, "I'll cut your head off", and claims to have "comrades" across Britain who have "had enough".

The videos were made after the arrests three weeks ago of suspects connected to the alleged plot to blow up trans-Atlantic jets. Their style mimics the "martyrdom videos" of Islamic radicals.

The release of the videos on YouTube, a US-based open-access website, coincides with reports of a rise in the number of attacks on mosques.

Massoud Shadjareh, chairman of the Islamic Human Rights Commission, said the videoed threats were extremely worrying.

"There is no question there has been an increase in attacks on mosques and Muslims," he said at the weekend.

The videos, posted between August 11 and 19, depict three men, each wearing a black terrorist-style mask.

Would-be viewers of the clips, lasting two to three minutes, are told in a YouTube warning the videos "may contain content that is inappropriate for some users".

In one video, a man with a London accent says: "I wish to know what we are going to do to fight the so-called religion of peace known as Islam."

He lists incidents including the racially motivated murder of Ross Parker, a white teenager, on September 21, 2001. The alleged airline bomb plot is also mentioned, with the masked man claiming it has resulted in "no retaliation" against Muslims.

He says: "It may be because you fear prison. Well, wake up. I am calling on England, Ulster, Scotland and Wales to stand and defend the island that we love."

Another video, dated August 19, shows a balaclava-clad man with a Welsh accent telling Muslims to "go home" or be burned.

Brandishing a 30cm-long hunting knife with a serrated blade, he says: "We are going to rip the life out of you. I am going to tear your guts out. I'll cut your head off."

In a reference that may indicate a military background, he says the slaughter would remind him of being "back in the Gulf".

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...2703%2C00.html

HuffDawg · #13 (**permalink**) 09-08-2006, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RASTAMAN

Published on Tuesday, September 5, 2006 by The Morning Call (Allentown, Pennsylvania)

Nationalism, Not Islam, Motivates Most Suicide Terrorists

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0905-21.htm

by Gary Olson

Here is today's discussion question: Suicide terrorism is primarily caused by Islamic fundamentalism. True or false? Although it seems counter-intuitive, especially given everything we read and hear in the mainstream media, the correct answer is ''false.''

In his recent book, ''DYING TO WIN: The Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism,'' University of Chicago political scientist Robert Pape has provided an indispensable public service by collecting data from all 315 suicide terrorist campaigns from 1980 to 2003, involving 462 individuals. His overall finding: The major objective of 95 percent of suicide attacks is to expel foreign military forces from territory that the terrorists perceive as their homeland. There is little connection with Islamic fundamentalism or any of the world religions. The taproot of suicide terrorism is nationalism and it's ''mainly a response to foreign occupation.'' The objective is political self-determination. The Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, a secular, clearly anti-religious movement, have committed 76 of the 315 suicide attacks, the most of any group. Their specific goal was an independent homeland in Sri Lanka. Pape, who has also taught at the U.S. Air Force's Advanced Airpower Studies, convincingly demonstrates that ''suicide terrorist groups are neither primarily criminal groups dedicated to enriching their top leaders, nor religious cults isolated from the rest of their society. Rather, suicide terrorist organizations often command broad social support within the national communities from which they recruit, because they are seen as pursuing legitimate nationalist goals.'' Absent these goals, suicide terrorism rarely occurs.

Only 6 percent of the perpetrators have come from the five countries with the world's largest Islamic fundamentalist populations. (Pakistan, Bangladesh, Egypt, Iran and Nigeria). He notes, ''Prior to America's invasion in March 2003, Iraq had never experienced a suicide bombing in its history.'' Further, Pape's demographic profiles of individual suicide terrorists reveals they are not uneducated, poor, mentally unstable, lacking in prospects, or young men expecting to spend paradise in the company of 72 virgins. Almost exactly the opposite is true. The data indicates they have higher incomes, intelligence and education, are deeply integrated into their communities, are highly politically conscious and from widely varied religious backgrounds. A significant minority are female.

Obviously, killing innocents is a morally repugnant act, but the evidence also strongly suggests that these individuals are motivated by a deep sense of duty and view their actions as a sacrifice for a nation's common good, its culture and community goals. Reprehensible, of course. But not caused by religious fervor. Although suicide attacks account for only 3 percent of terrorist incidents, they account for 48 percent of all fatalities. Clearly it's the most deadly manifestation of terrorism and there is every reason to suspect it will increase. It works.

Placing tens of thousands of U.S. troops in the Arabian Peninsula between 1990 and 2001 was the pivotal factor accounting for the Sept. 11 attacks. Pape concludes that given the high correlation between foreign military occupation and suicide terrorist movements, the continued and hated presence of American troops in the region will greatly facilitate terrorist organizers in recruiting fresh volunteers.

My own take is that here we get to the nub of the matter. U.S. military might is concentrated in this region for one reason: He who controls the world's energy resources, especially scarce oil resources, controls the world. He also becomes fabulously wealthy. Permanent military bases in Iraq are crucial to realizing their ends. How much easier, and necessary, for U.S. planners to deceive our citizens that Iraq and all the rest is about a ''war on terrorism'' related to Islamic fundementalism than to reveal the truth about their motives. They're well aware that an enlightened American public would refuse to give our nation's blessing, blood, and treasure to such a nefarious enterprise.

The so-called ''war on terror'' is fatally flawed because its planners are incapable of addressing the real political goals of those employing terrorism. They can't afford to do so. Precious little time remains to reverse a U.S. course of action that virtually guarantees a significant uptick in deadly attacks on Americans, both here and abroad.

Gary Olson, Ph.D., is chair of the Political Science Department at Moravian College in Bethlehem. His e-mail address is olson@moravian.edu.

You cant put The Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka in the same group as Osama's boys in the middle east. They are 2 different ideologys. The Tamil Tigers are fighting for independence or whatever they want, while I believe that Osama's boys are out to inflict terror and pain on anything western.

Hodgepodge · #14 (**permalink**) 09-08-2006, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob

Gix, I beleive that you are correct on this. It is sad that people will kill in the name of relegion but of course they do.

I am assuming that it is meerly coincidence that many of the terrorists were indoctrinated by the Wahhabis. Amazing coincidence.

George O Well · #15 (**permalink**) 09-08-2006, 06:53 PM

"You god dam liberals get cought on these talking points it's like a god dam broken record."

>>>Talking point or not (I'd never heard it before), the truth is the truth.

"Prior to America's invasion in march 2003, 25 million people lived under a tyranical dictator and now are free."

>>>Yeah, everybody's free under anarchy. Good thinking!

Skinny Fatts · #16 (**permalink**) 09-08-2006, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gixaholic

i didn't know islam was a nation

In a sense it is. In Islam there is no separation of church and state.

cat's meow · #17 (**permalink**) 09-08-2006, 09:19 PM

RASTAMAN, I am a bit confused here because the first thing that is given is the Sri Lanka example...

Quote:

The Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka, a secular, clearly anti-religious movement, have committed 76 of the 315 suicide attacks, the most of any group. Their specific goal was an independent homeland in Sri Lanka.

This seems to weaken the argument for what you are posting. I think Pape has some interesting data but I am not sure it is totally conclusive to what is being argued. What dies this do for an argument that would deal with the Taliban?

Without saying people want other foriegn powers out of thier land and I have sadi over and over our best solution is to get out ourselves but this does not account for the civil wars and other problems that happen in that part of the world.

cat's meow · #18 (**permalink**) 09-08-2006, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skinny Fatts

In a sense it is. In Islam there is no separation of church and state.

In part, I agree with this. This has both good and bad aspects to it.

Scoody Boo · #19 (**permalink**) 09-08-2006, 10:58 PM

Okay, if this is true, where are the exploding Christian Palestininans? They are under the same Israeli "occupation" as the Palestinian Muslims. Where are they? Why are they not as "nationalistic" as the Muslims.

Islam is the driving force behind the suicide bombings, if it was nationalism, there would be more than just exploding pissed off Muslims.

PhilosopherWarrior · #20 (**permalink**) 09-09-2006, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RASTAMAN

Published on Tuesday, September 5, 2006 by The Morning Call (Allentown, Pennsylvania)

Nationalism, Not Islam, Motivates Most Suicide Terrorists

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0905-21.htm

by Gary Olson

Rasta Starts this new thread with an unusual and easily disproved assertion.. oops.. an obvious re-circulation of a "progressive" media story.
_ SO it is an attempt just what we assert about leftist partisans ( and their conceptual perspective ) and how they spread the propaganda of self expressed "concerned citizens".

So let's see.. Common dreams says THIS about themselves..
""
Common Dreams is a national non-profit citizens' organization working to bring progressive Americans together to promote progressive visions for America's future. Founded in 1997, we are committed to being on the cutting-edge of using the internet as a political organizing tool - and creating new models for internet activism.""
ANd look at the little lead blurb>>"" Reclaiming the Issues:
Islamic or Republican Fascism"" by Thom Hartmann..

And we thought George and all the other lefties were coming to their own independent conclusions..
{{{ ANd the THOM HArtmann trash ( besides being a rehash of every threads attempt at reasoning) is to a great extent based on THIS false and illogically leading assertion by..
( surprise!! a soviet sympathizing American who was FDR's Vice President!!!)
here:: "" Vice President Wallace bluntly laid out his concern about the same happening here in America in his 1944 Times article:
" If we define an American fascist as one who in case of conflict puts money and power ahead of human beings, then there are undoubtedly several million fascists in the United States. There are probably several hundred thousand if we narrow the definition to include only those who in their search for money and power are ruthless and deceitful. ... They are patriotic in time of war because it is to their interest to be so, but in time of peace they follow power and the dollar wherever they may lead."
"".. }}}}}
and it IS the vehicle of and run by .... Congressman Tom Andrews( a press release that doesn't seem to find much time about his affiliation or his record..)
except one issue. And it turns out that there is a link to THIS site.." http://www.winwithoutwarus.org/

and strangely enough.. this seems to have a political agenda.
Our Mission
Win Without War is a coalition of national organizations representing broad constituencies that aim to Keep America Safe by advocating that international cooperation and enforceable international law provide the greatest security for the United States and the world. The coalition offers a mainstream, patriotic voice for engaging opinion makers, activating concerned citizens, and communicating effectively to the media.
What We Support
We are patriotic Americans who are committed to a U.S. foreign policy that embodies our nation's highest ideals. We oppose the militarization of our foreign policy and its effects at home and abroad. We share the commitment to countering terrorism and weapons proliferation, but oppose the doctrine of unilateral military preemption. We believe that international cooperation and enforceable international law provide the greatest security for the United States and the world, and the greatest opportunity for people to live in free, healthy, and just societies.
... They like groups to join, but Tom Andrews controls the steering commitee.
""To join, organizations must have national scope, be nonpartisan, multipartisan, or bipartisan, and must agree to our mission and political statements. The full committee is supported by a small steering committee and two co-chairs, Susan Shaer, Women's Action for New Directions, and Robert Edgar, National Council of Churches. Tom Andrews, former Member of Congress, is national director of the coalition.""

And this obvious partisan website has a list of member groups..
This "non-profit" organization ( 80 mil of donations..)
is made up of a number of members..
All groups and they seem to have a shared agenda. They certainly all have the same perspectives, and terminology.
Here, if you don't want to go..
Hmm..Here's 20/20.. an enviro-democracy activist "fun!" bunch giving you the talking points..
"" 20/20 Vision makes grassroots activism easy for busy people. We give citizens the information and tools they need to get involved on important issues like reducing air pollution from cars and power plants, keeping dangerous pesticides out of our food, limiting nuclear arms and making our country more secure. Our alerts tell you how to contact politicians and corporate officials and quickly and easily tell them you’re watching them on an urgent issue.Best of all, we engage activists through creative online and offline strategies and make it fun!
""
Hey they have a puff press release on Dem Sen Joe Biden
on their front page...
And he is such a measured and well spoken statesman.
This is American Friends.. Internet Quakers!.. and surprise!.. They start out touchy feely nice slogans of 'goodness'
and then becomes quite explicit in their political agenda.. their complaints, and their vague and happy slogans of solutions..

""The American Friends Service Committee is a practical expression of the faith of the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers). Committed to the principles of nonviolence and justice, it seeks in its work and witness to draw on the transforming power of love, human and divine..""
and .. surprise!!!.. Every one of their major tenets and agendas "sound " wonderful and ..
they just don't really make logical connections..
But they definitely all are similar.
ANd the ""American -Arab Anti Discrimination Committee""
adc.org
All of THEIR propagandstically slanted editorials have an underlying message. And strangely enough..
We have heard echoes ( almost verbatim ) from this sites commentaries..
But Mary Rose Oakar as Ohioan apparatchik actually
"flew on Air Force One" with Bill Clinton.

""