Gix I read your thread and would like to make a point to you. There are hundreds of threads on this forum. Many are well researched and have brought forth discussions from all viewpoints. When the video Loose change was sent to this forum A POLITICAL Forum of course we are going to discuss it. There are many unanswered questions. That does not mean anyone was taking one video at its word but discussing the science and possibilities.

Now since you seem to want to debunk any information that could be a person acting on a conspiracy I have a question for you. George W. Bush in a low scary voice on television one evening in 2003 squinted his eyes at the camera and warned us all if we did not take immediate action the next step would be to see a dark mushroom cloud over the United States. He told us of nuclear weapons and imminent danger and dark mushroom clouds in a hushed voice. He and his administration showed a map with childlike drawings telling us of missles pointed our way. Looking directly at the camera he used the words dark mushroom cloud 3 times as the next event if we did not take immediate action. Is George W. Bush a conspiracy nut who led us into war with a paranoid conspiracy theory?

Actually I am just posing this question to you because of your determination to focus on conspiracy. Recalling that evenings presidential address I could see where one might think that. However I do not believe Mr. Bush believed in any conspiracy from Saddam against the U.S. I think he was determined for whatever reasons to take us into this war and he really did cherry pick intelligence therefore risking so much of his country for his own quest that was not in the best interest of the country, our military, the Iraq people and the world.

I am very pragmatic and practical. I can see clearly the errors of this administration are so great that repair will be ongoing for years. They used 9/11 as a blank check for whatever action they wanted. Now this is a forum of all views. If you think invading Iraq was in the best interest of the country state your reasons and research and lets hear it.

My background is Science. Theories are tested and scrutinized and discussed in academia. Review the last thousand years of information. It was those that kept questioning and researching that made change and new discoveries. That does not mean every discussion of possibilites is a paranoid theory. I read your link..it made some decent points then again it was not really addressing some of the science based issues in question.

I guess I am questioning if your intent is to discuss and refute issues you disagree with or if you are just trying to win a pissing contest with various members who research and think.

Many of these listed have never been mentioned in any theory put forth by credible academics, former intelligence personnel, experts in the fields applicable. Of the agencies, companies and groups involved, only the top officials need to be complicit. The rest do what the boss says to keep their precious insurance (big deal these days), pension, paycheck, etc. Those that have spoken up within these companies were quickly made examples of.

So, let's get to debunking the debunkers.


the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA),TRUE but only at the highest levels
the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST) TRUE but only at the highest levels
the Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers (SEI/ASCE), Not complicit, but pressured to toe the official line
the National Council of Structural Engineers Associations, Not complicit, but pressured to toe the official line
the New York City Department of Design and Construction, Not complicit, but pressured to toe the official line
the Structural Engineers Association of New York, Not complicit, but pressured to toe the official line
the National Fire Protection Association, Made their assessment based on the very flawed "official theory" which was assembled by FEMA and NIST
the Society of Fire Protection Engineers, Made their assessment based on the very flawed "official theory"
the American Concrete Institute, Made their assessment based on the very flawed "official theory"
the Building and Construction Trades Council, Made their assessment based on the very flawed "official theory"
the American Institute of Steel Construction, Made their assessment based on the very flawed "official theory"
the Masonry Society, Made their assessment based on the very flawed "official theory"
the Pentagon security staff, True, anyone notice any staff changes prior to the attacks?
The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, True but only at the highest levels
hundreds of steelworkers, some of whom built the WTC, Never mentioned in any competing theory
the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat, Never mentioned in any credible competing theory
United Laboratories, Not related to 9-11, this lab was involved in the Anthrax fiasco
the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory, Not complicit, but pressured to toe the official line, gee, I wonder where they get their funding?
Controlled Demolitions, Inc. Only hired to oversee debris removal
Bovis, Inc. Only hired to remove debris
Tully Construction Only hired to remove debris
AEMC Construction Unsure how this one fits in
Karl Koch Steel Consulting, Inc. Only hired to remove debris
The United Steelworkers of America Made their assessment based on the very flawed "official theory"
the Armed Forces Institute of Technology Able Danger not 9-11
the Federal Advisory Committee, Chairman is fellow PNAC neo-con Brent Scowcroft
several DNA labs, Competing theories quote actual unbiased results, doesn't belong in this list
Numerous Forensic Pathologists, Competing theories quote actual unbiased results, doesn't belong in this list
Numerous Forensic Anthropologists, Competing theories quote actual unbiased results, doesn't belong in this list
Numerous Forensic Dentists, Competing theories quote actual unbiased results, doesn't belong in this list
Numerous Forensic Radiologists, Competing theories quote actual unbiased results, doesn't belong in this list
the National Medical Response Team, Never implicated
the International Association of Fire Chiefs Never implicated
the New York City Police Department Emergency Services Unit Never implicated
the Fire Department of New York, Never implicated
the New York City Office of Emergency Management, True, at the highest levels, see Guliani
the New York State Emergency Management Office, True, at the highest level, see Pataki
the Arlington County Fire Department, Never implicated
the Arlington County Sheriff's Department, Never implicated
the Arlington County Emergency Medical Services Never implicated
the Arlington County SWAT Team, Never implicated
the Arlington, VA Police Department, Never implicated
the Fairfax County Fire & Rescue, Never implicated
the FBI's Evidence Recovery Teams, True, at the highest levels, pressured to move too quickly, did not process the crime scene according to protocol
the Montgomery County Fire & Rescue, Never implicated
the Alexandria, VA Fire & Rescue Never implicated
the District of Columbia Fire & Rescue Never implicated
the Metropolitan Airport Authority Fire Unit Never implicated
the Military District of Washington Search & Rescue Team Pressured to move too quickly, did not process the crime scene according to protocol
the Fort Myer Fire Department, Never implicated
the Pentagon Fire Unit, Duped and clueless, simply responded to the crisis
the Pentagon Medical Unit, Duped and clueless, simply responded to the crisis
the Pentagon 2-person Helicopter Crash Response Team Duped and clueless, simply responded to the crisis
the Pentagon Defense Protective Service, Duped and clueless, simply responded to the crisis
several FBI Hazmat Teams, Duped and clueless, simply responded to the crisis
several EPA Hazmat Teams, Duped and clueless, simply responded to the crisis
the Virginia State Police, Never implicated
the FEMA Virginia-1, Virginia-2, Maryland-1 and Tennessee-1 Task Forces
the DOD Honor Guard Never implicated
the US Army Reserves of Virginia Beach, Fairfax County and Montgomery County, Never implicated
the Virginia Department of Emergency Management Never implicated
the Washington, D.C. Fire Department, Never implicated
the California Incident Management Team, Never implicated
the Shanksville, PA VFD, Never implicated
the Somerset County Coroner's Office, Never implicated
the Somerset County Emergency Management Agency Never implicated
the Westmoreland County Emergency Management Agency Never implicated
the State of Pennsylvania Emergency Management Agency Never implicated
the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection Never implicated
the Pennsylvania State Funeral Directors Association Never implicated
the Pennsylvania Region 13 Metropolitan Medical Response Group Never implicated
the Pennsylvania Department of Health and Human Services, Never implicated
the Salvation Army Disaster Services, Never implicated
the National Emergency Numbering Association Never implicated
the 911 operators who took the calls from passengers, Never implicated

__________________
S.O.S. ------ United We Stand, Divided We Fall

the American Red Cross, Never implicated
the National Guard in D.C., NYC, and PA., Never implicated
the Air National Guard, Followed orders
the Federal Bureau of Investigation, True, only at the highest levels
the United States Secret Service, Not necessarily in the know
the Central Intelligence Agency, True, only at the highest levels
the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, True, only at the highest levels
the New York Port Authority Police, Duped and clueless, simply responded to the crisis
the New York Port Authority Construction Board Pressured to toe the official theory line
the National Law Enforcement and Security Institute, Made their assessment based on the "official" theory
the World Trade Center security staff, Duped and clueless, simply responded to the crisis
the Office of the Chief Medical Examiner for the City of New York Competing theories quote actual unbiased results, doesn't belong in this list
United Airlines, Failing Airline that gets BILLIONS in a post attack bailout
American Airlines, Failing Airline that gets BILLIONS in a post attack bailout
the Office of Emergency Preparedness Duped and clueless, simply responded to the crisis
Several Federal Disaster Mortuary (DMORT) Teams, Duped and clueless, simply responded to the crisis
Several Federal Disaster Medical Assistance Teams, Duped and clueless, simply responded to the crisis
the Fairfax County Urban Search and Rescue Team, Duped and clueless, simply responded to the crisis
the Virginia State Police. Duped and clueless, simply responded to the crisis
Many other Urban Search and Rescue Teams Duped and clueless, simply responded to the crisis
the FEMA Incident Support Team, Duped and clueless, simply responded to the crisis
the FEMA Emergency Response Team, Duped and clueless, simply responded to the crisis
the FEMA Disaster Field Office. Duped and clueless, simply responded to the crisis
the US Department of Defense, True, only at the highest levels
the US Department of Justice, True, only at the highest levels
the US Department of State, True, only at the highest levels
the National Response Center, Followed orders
North American Aerospace Defense Command, B]Followed orders[/b]
the National Military Command Center, B]Followed orders[/b]
the Federal Aviation Administration, Responded nearly appropriately but was stonewalled
the National Disaster Medical System, Duped and clueless, simply responded to the crisis
the HHS National Medical Response Team, Duped and clueless, simply responded to the crisis
the Counterterrorism and Security Group, After the fact report on intel gathering prior to attacks, not applicable
the US Army’s Communications-Electronics Command, Followed Orders
the Northeast Air Defense Sector Commanders Followed Orders
three E-4B National Airborne Operations Center planes, Followed Orders
the C-130H crew in D.C. Followed Orders
the Falcon 20 crew in PA, Followed Orders
SACE Prime Power Assessment Teams, Not implicated
SACE Structural Safety Engineers and Debris Planning and Response Teams, Followed Orders
the Federal Aviation Administration, Duped during, pressured after.
the National Transportation Safety Board, After the fact, pressured to toe the line
the New York Flight Control Center, Duped and clueless, simply responded to the crisis
the Air Traffic Control System Command Center in Washington, Followed Orders
the Cleveland Airport control tower, Duped during, pressured after.
the Congressional Joint Intelligence Committee, True, only at the highest levels
the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States Stacked with neo-cans
Not complicit, no fore knowledge, corporate advert sellers. They don't care what they report as long as it sells and sounds plausible.

This is the WORST (or best) example of a lazy intellect. Some yahoo simply went through a time line of the events as described on a competing theory site and without reading the context pulled out every name they could find. The FACT is that most of these listed were only mentioned as continuity to the timeline. This list is not only stacked, but done so in the simplest manner possible. Only those that are too lazy to look into the FACTS surrounding each of these will be fooled.

Another FACT is that most of the people that were directly involved in the planning and execution had direct and complete authority over the folks under them. These are situations where you don't EVER ask why, you just do what your told. And as a result of their positions, you are already expected to keep your mouth shut even if there isn't anything nefarious to report.

The intricate web of power woven together was and is stacked with cronie's, neo-cons. Only those that were at the highest levels need know exactly what was happening and why, most everyone else was simply doing what they were told.

Legend:
TRUE but only at the highest levels These groups are staffed by neo-con cronies who directed their staffs to their bidding. These are government agencies that have a culture of do as you're told, keep your mouth shut.

Not complicit, but pressured to toe the official line They had know idea what the hell was going on, but their stories after the fact were needed to support the "official" theory. Many of these groups receive all or part of their funding (and thus their killer jobs) from the fed

Made their assessment based on the very flawed "official theory" They simply were not provided any other data to go on. Kinda like the Intel regarding Iraq.

Never mentioned in any credible competing theory Unless it was part of the continuity of the timeline
Duped and clueless, simply responded to the crisis In the confusion of the aftermath, we were all duped. They did not need to have any inside info to respond and do their jobs.

__________________
S.O.S. ------ United We Stand, Divided We Fall

Listen....... shhhhhhhh *POP* Awwww there goes Gix's ignorant, lazy, uninformed, bubble.

Congrats on posting another piece of completely misdirected and absolutely uncredible info. Maybe you should actually read the stuff you're trying to debunk instead of relying on others (that don't read what they are trying to debunk) for your argument. That's why you will fail again and again in this (and every) debate. I read EVERYTHING so that I know where the holes are. You don't even know when you've fallen into one.

Oh, and I could go on and do the "updated" list as well, but it will just be more of the same. Bullshit research. If you can call trolling for names without reading the conext research.

__________________
S.O.S. ------ United We Stand, Divided We Fall

On second thought, I will destroy the second list tomorrow.

__________________
S.O.S. ------ United We Stand, Divided We Fall

Ohkam i just posted the link. Im not going to force fead the masses like you do. Extrapulating what works and ommiting what doesn't. Just a link people can click on it and find out for themselves. Thanks for your help though and your usuall belittleing comments.

And i beleive we can agree to disagree on this point. But allote of the stuff you post are shure theories as such. And honestly you do not have any first hand knoledge of the going ons of any of these governmnet agencies. So is it safe to say your comments are pure specualative. Oh and by the way You say i rely on other people's info. But in actaltiy you do the same. Your just naive enough to beleive what your reading and to make things worse you regurgitate them and post them on online message board. Now who is the sheep heer. None of your conspiracy theories are original and are factually wrong. So why do you blast anyone who beleives the opaset and who make their opinions on information that completly contradicts yours. Little ironic dont you think. What makes your info that much more credible.(lets not forget allote of your info comes off of conpiracy sites) Personally i think you are a smart and a well articulated. But it seems you have been sucked into these conspiracy theories via the hate that you have for President bush and his administration.

Oh and by the way i thought i was on ignore........ lol. Or is it that i am such a threat to your little world (since acording to you i am so feable minded) that you have to battle me at every corner. I beleive the later is true otherwise i would still be on ignore.



Anyway

cheers

Unitl the last few posts on 9-11 E U, I have not offered ANY opinions. As far as factually wrong, PROVE IT! What you posted here was halfassed to say the least. Hard science, diligent analytical method, and massive wholes in the "ooficial story are not speculative. The people doing the science are not chumps, they are experts of the first order. As much as you wish it were as easy to dismiss it as your opinion column, it is far from it.

As far as regurgitating, hardly, I sift through everything in an attempt to bring solid coherent explanations to the thread. Not hack blog crap from someone that just made a list without verifying the context. I check through the info, cross check it, and do everything I can do make shure it's bulletproof. You read a head line and copy and paste. BIG difference.

The reason I have animosity towards the Cheney Cabal doens't come out of thin air, it doesn't come from infomediatainment, it comes from reading EVERYTHING I can lay my hands on. That's why I'm smart and articulate. I have a vast catalogue of info to draw from. I do not say this with arrogance, it's just who I am and what I do. I'm a researcher, and have been from the time I was able to read. It's innate. I know most don't have the time to do it themselves, so I try to distill and provide the Readers Digest version.

As far as my insults to you... if you wish, I can go back and pull the posts whre it all started. I did not attack you in any way. You attacked me. You have lied to make a cheap point, you've slandered me with your video BS and you expect me to play nice with you? *#*&@*&^$@&*^$#!!!!!

If you can participate without going off the deepend, I will have the same discourse that i have with others that show a modicum of respect, otherwise you will get back as much as you dish out. I'm always willing to give someone a second chance. But I will not tolerate ignorance passed off as information.

If you would like to meet on the 9-11 thread, i'd be happy to go over each post with you and explain things, (that's not meant condescendingly). But you haven't even bothered to read any of it. So you are wholly unqualifeid to make an assesment of it.

As far as ignoring you... you have proven you can't be trusted to conduct yourself in a mature and responsible fashion time and again. The video stunt was just the latest. Which by the way is both slander and libel. It is you who are threatened and every action you take towards me porves it.

What makes my info more credible? It's compiled by folks that are highly respected in their feilds. Sure it comes off conspiracy sites, who else is going to host this info with folks like you in the world that dismiss things out of hand just because they sound implausible? Stop trying to take the site and blanket the info with labels and LOOK AT THE INFO AND WHO PROVIDED IT! I challenge you to discredit ANY OF THESE EXPERTS! But you can't, so you have to continually go for the cheap shot. That's all you so gix. Easy insults, generalizations and cheap shots, no substance.

If you were to actually read the info provided, google the guy who provided the research, looked at his bio and career, and how their peers respect them, then you might at least realize that this isn't a bag of nuts. IT's your little world that is in danger of being upset, not mine. I am one of the most confident and self assured people you will ever meet. Becuase I'm confident in the research and it's thoroughness. ANd ya, I'll blow apart any halfassed BS that is the product of a commentator in a heart beat.

__________________
S.O.S. ------ United We Stand, Divided We Fall

Lets see if I understand this.......For the FIRST TIME IN HISTORY over 100 people involved in a MASSIVE conspiracy ALL manage to keep their mouths shut for 5 years???? YEAAAAAAAAA RIGHT. Excuse me now while I go watch my dog play the piano.

Dizzy

Dizzy and Gixy, all I can say is enjoy the GOP NEOCON Fascist Corruption ride while you can; remember nothing last forever. The barometer for the truth is TIME. So cheerlead and blindly follow and support the Bush Crime Family and the Corporate Fascist who currently run this country. History will prove you wrong!!!

However, when the truth comes out overtime and exposes the crimes committed by this current administration and their enablers,your bankrupt robotic gulliable character will once again allow you to slink away into obscurity.

The American people have grown tired of what's truely going on in this country and the tide will change. Unlike you guys and millions of knuckle dragging conservatives; myself, OKHAMRAZOR and many posters in this forum who unbiasly research and use critical thinking processess will be on the right side of History.