Where do your Rights come from?

Teak · #81 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom1

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights

Inalienable rights, by definition, are not granted by the state - no human grants these rights. They are rights which no state has the power to confer because being human entitles you to these rights.

Again, you can agree or disagree, but some of the Founders did say that these inalienable rights were granted by a higher power. Since inalienable rights by definition cannot be granted by the state (only protected), they could not come from the state. I suppose the argument could be made that the protection of these rights is the same as granting them, but it is just semantics.

I am not agreeing with them that God or some other higher power is actually granting these rights, but that many of the Founders did indeed say this. I am also stating that inalienable rights are not granted by the state.

How did this higher authority grant these rights? Are there some stone tablets we haven't heard about yet?

Just because MAN says they are inalienable and endowed by the creator does not make it true. Prove the creator did so.

Carrying this crap even further, if endowed by the creator, why doesn't all of mankind enjoy these same rights? Certainly something given by the creator can not be denied by mortal man.

Dom1 · #82 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teak

How did this higher authority grant these rights? Are there some stone tablets we haven't heard about yet?

Just because MAN says they are inalienable and endowed by the creator does not make it true. Prove the creator did so.

Carrying this crap even further, if endowed by the creator, why doesn't all of mankind enjoy these same rights? Certainly something given by the creator can not be denied by mortal man.

You are right, it doesn't prove it is true. But man is the one saying that men are not and can not bestow these inalienable rights.

Something endowed by the Creator should not be denied by man, you got the general premise correct.

As far as proving the Creator did so . . . . . old fallback argument. Can you prove a Creator didn't? Just as lame.

Call them something else if you want, or else change the definition of inalienable, but as long as they are called inalienable rights they aren't rights granted to us by man made laws.

nathanbforrest45 · #83 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teak

How did this higher authority grant these rights? Are there some stone tablets we haven't heard about yet?

Just because MAN says they are inalienable and endowed by the creator does not make it true. Prove the creator did so.

Carrying this crap even further, if endowed by the creator, why doesn't all of mankind enjoy these same rights? Certainly something given by the creator can not be denied by mortal man.

All of mankind do have the same rights. We have those rights by nature of being man. However, not all mankind has a constitution who's sole purpose is to protect those rights.

Teak · #84 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nathanbforrest45

All of mankind do have the same rights. We have those rights by nature of being man. However, not all mankind has a constitution who's sole purpose is to protect those rights.

In OUR opinion all mankind may be entitle to those rights, but they most certainly do not HAVE them, constitution or no. Just look to Africa, where slavery is still practiced, or China, N Korea, or Cuba. Then of course there is the middle east where no women have those rights.

Heckler · #85 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom1

You are right, it doesn't prove it is true. But man is the one saying that men are not and can not bestow these inalienable rights.

Something endowed by the Creator should not be denied by man, you got the general premise correct.

As far as proving the Creator did so . . . . . old fallback argument. Can you prove a Creator didn't? Just as lame.

Call them something else if you want, or else change the definition of inalienable, but as long as they are called inalienable rights they aren't rights granted to us by man made laws.

It's nice words and a great sentiment, and would be nice if it were true....

But reality speaks to a different truth....as Teak noted if these rights were granted by a Supreme Creator....how come they don't universally exist? How could mere mortal men remove something granted by a supreme being?

Either the creator is NOT supreme, or there is no sentient creator.

nathanbforrest45 · #86 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teak

In OUR opinion all mankind may be entitle to those rights, but they most certainly do not HAVE them, constitution or no. Just look to Africa, where slavery is still practiced, or China, N Korea, or Cuba. Then of course there is the middle east where no women have those rights.

Don't understand your argument. Are you saying that just because these folks rights are being violated they don't have them or they are not inalienable?

Dom1 · #87 (**permalink**) 05-22-2008, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heckler

It's nice words and a great sentiment, and would be nice if it were true....

But reality speaks to a different truth....as Teak noted if these rights were granted by a Supreme Creator....how come they don't universally exist? How could mere mortal men remove something granted by a supreme being?

Either the creator is NOT supreme, or there is no sentient creator.

If the rights are granted by man made laws then they are not inalienable. By definition they are not.

Fine by me, but then people need to quit calling them inalienable rights.

The rights do univerally exist, that is what our Founding Fathers were trying to say. They wrote a document to protect these rights, not everyone does that.

The answer to your question would be free will.

NAT · #88 (**permalink**) 05-25-2008, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom1

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights

Inalienable rights, by definition, are not granted by the state - no human grants these rights. They are rights which no state has the power to confer because being human entitles you to these rights.

Again, you can agree or disagree, but some of the Founders did say that these inalienable rights were granted by a higher power. Since inalienable rights by definition cannot be granted by the state (only protected), they could not come from the state. I suppose the argument could be made that the protection of these rights is the same as granting them, but it is just semantics.

I am not agreeing with them that God or some other higher power is actually granting these rights, but that many of the Founders did indeed say this. I am also stating that inalienable rights are not granted by the state.

The DOI is a colonial document, and no more of a Founding Document than the Mayflower Compact. It was a letter of intention crafted by a people still beholden to a Christian Monarchy politely telling that King to bugger off, utilizing the standard governmental protocols of the day. It was also written by the lawyer who later coined the Seperation of Church and State phrase as well.

You statements above also do not take into consideration the great lengths to which our Constitution was debated in Congress, or the years between ratification of the Constitution and of the Bill of Rights. Apperently, each Founder had his own idea of what was "inaleinable".

NAT · #89 (**permalink**) 05-25-2008, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nathanbforrest45

All of mankind do have the same rights. We have those rights by nature of being man. However, not all mankind has a constitution who's sole purpose is to protect those rights.

I beg to differ.
If there were some sort of higher power granting us rights, then one would see the same rights across cultures and times.
This is catagorically not the case.
Each culture has, and has had, their own set of what they considered rights. Among English nobility during the medieval ages, it was considered a devine right to have sex with a new-bride peasent before that couple consumated their marriage. Among 1st Nations people, it was considered a right to take people from neighboring clans/nations as slaves during a raid. During our own early history, it was considered a right to own people.

Rights, like morals, are subjective, and subjected to a consensus of society.

Suburbanite · #90 (**permalink**) 05-25-2008, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom1

Call them something else if you want, or else change the definition of inalienable, but as long as they are called inalienable rights they aren't rights granted to us by man made laws.

Are you retarded? Of course there are no such thing as inalienable rights, despite someone claiming the opposite. To say there is something intrinsic, within us, called a right; an unwavering truth and capacity to propagate your specific understanding of the world is as juvenile a world view as the ones expressed via religion. There is no meat, no substance to any of your arguments, they rely strictly on imagination and wishful thinking.