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05-20-2008, 10:35 AM
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Political Junkie
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Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.J. Wilczek
There are no absolute rights. All rights are subject to law that defines their limitation. There is nothing in the course of human events, from the moment of life’s conception to the final disposition of one’s mortal remains and property after death, that is not governed by law. To say that one has a right to anything can only be validated by law.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil Kaine
OK. How can a law violate somebodys' "Rights" when the law validates the right? "All rights are subject to law that defines their limitation."
Doesn't it follow that there must be rights "out there" somewhere that can't be changed by the Laws of Man or we wouldn't run into this problem time and time again?
I don't understand how you can have no rights but those given by law and rights that can't be changed by law? It seems a little "having it both ways" to me. It looks like if the courts don't like the new rule of law they can say YOU CAN"T CHANGE THIS its an unalienable right. On the other hand we can give rights by law to things unthought of before. Double standard?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.J. Wilczek
The idea of so-called "natural rights" is a fiction. All rights are the creation of law. As Bentham put it: "[N]atural rights is simple nonsense: natural and imprescriptible rights, rhetorical nonsense,—nonsense upon stilts." Jeremy Bentham, Anarchical Fallacies (1816).
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I still don't understand How a law can violate a persons rights if "All rights are the creation of law." How does this work?
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05-20-2008, 10:42 AM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 12,498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W.J. Wilczek
The idea of so-called "natural rights" is a fiction. All rights are the creation of law. As Bentham put it: "[N]atural rights is simple nonsense: natural and imprescriptible rights, rhetorical nonsense,—nonsense upon stilts." Jeremy Bentham, Anarchical Fallacies (1816).
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Be that as it may, it was a fiction endorsed by our Founders. |
05-20-2008, 10:44 AM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 2,543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil Kaine
I still don't understand How a law can violate a persons rights if "All rights are the creation of law." How does this work?
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If a law is created, it must meet constitutional requirements, or it could be a violation of rights under constitutional law....not some absolute law, there is none.
The Supreme Court reviews laws to be sure they meet that requirement.
__________________
"If you're going to tell people the truth, be funny or they'll kill you." -- Billy Wilder
"Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied." -- Otto Von Bismark
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05-20-2008, 10:50 AM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,057
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil Kaine
Are Your Rights GIVEN to you by your government? OR Are Rights inalienable? GIVEN to you by God?
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Neither, the only rights you have are the ones that you are willing to fight for.
All rights are vested in the individual. Rights can only be taken away by your allowing those rights to be taken away. Sometimes you allow them to be taken away because you benefit from doing so, other times you allow them to be taken away because you are afraid of the consequences, but whatever the reasons, they are your rights. |
05-20-2008, 11:02 AM
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Political Junkie
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Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heckler
If a law is created, it must meet constitutional requirements, or it could be a violation of rights under constitutional law....not some absolute law, there is none.
The Supreme Court reviews laws to be sure they meet that requirement.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TakuanSoho
Neither, the only rights you have are the ones that you are willing to fight for.
All rights are vested in the individual. Rights can only be taken away by your allowing those rights to be taken away. Sometimes you allow them to be taken away because you benefit from doing so, other times you allow them to be taken away because you are afraid of the consequences, but whatever the reasons, they are your rights.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil Kaine
I also can embrace the idea that nobody has the right to anything until they have the will and the power to stand up and take it as their right. Only the strong people and strong groups have rights. The weak, poor and underprivileged must live with what scraps the strong decide to give them! Now that is the kind of PROGRESSIVE government I can really get behind. No complicating things with stupid ideas of "right and wrong". Just what do I want and am I and my friends strong enough to get it! Truly Beautiful.
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OK we can agree, THE STRONG RULE! AND THE WEAK DROOL!
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05-20-2008, 11:05 AM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: chapmanville, wv
Posts: 4,709
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NAT
Prove your god exsits first, then we can consider that portion of your arguement.
It is the common consensus of the people that provide what constitutes "rights".
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Prove that your God does not exist, or prove where life comes from, or prove how a star is born, or even describe what causes gravity. Therefore, because you can not prove where mankind comes from but only speculate.....you must not be real, as you are only the product of someones mental speculation. If man exists its not hard at all to conclude that God exists as well. BD
Last edited by bluedog : 05-20-2008 at 11:09 AM.
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05-20-2008, 11:20 AM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 2,543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil Kaine
OK we can agree, THE STRONG RULE! AND THE WEAK DROOL!
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No, I don't agree....compassion for other sentient beings needs to be a part of the equation.
Might does not equal right.
__________________
"If you're going to tell people the truth, be funny or they'll kill you." -- Billy Wilder
"Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied." -- Otto Von Bismark
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05-20-2008, 11:30 AM
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Political Junkie
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Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heckler
...not some absolute law, there is none.
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I thought we were on the same page? Then you throw this in;
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heckler
No, I don't agree....compassion for other sentient beings needs to be a part of the equation.
Might does not equal right.
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When you start talking about "other sentient beings" and right and wrong, it sounds like your pushing some kind of "God Thing"? |
05-20-2008, 11:41 AM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,057
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heckler
No, I don't agree....compassion for other sentient beings needs to be a part of the equation.
Might does not equal right.
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For the vast majority of people, there is common cause in restricting the rights of the strong. After all, only a few people can be on top of the pyramid. |
05-20-2008, 11:56 AM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 2,543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil Kaine
I thought we were on the same page? Then you throw this in;
When you start talking about "other sentient beings" and right and wrong, it sounds like your pushing some kind of "God Thing"?
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Nope, I'm agnostic.
I do believe in having a set of ethics to live one's life by....
For me, the basic bottom line is "do what you will provided you harm no other"
(grossly simplified, but that is the basis)
__________________
"If you're going to tell people the truth, be funny or they'll kill you." -- Billy Wilder
"Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied." -- Otto Von Bismark
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