Aynd Rand was the greatest philospher. Ever.

Dom1 · #**221** (**permalink**) 05-20-2008, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heckler

It seems that either collectivism OR individualism taken to extremes becomes problematic....

I agree. However, what I am arguing is that:

A: Fascism is a form of collectivism
B: Rand endorsed individualism
C: Individualism is the opposite of collectivism
D: Rand is therefore the opposite of fascism

Which is also the exact opposite of what fatty is arguing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smart makes a comeback

Nazism was founded, among other things, upon ANTI collectivism.

Nope. 100% wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom1

What advocates of altruism were gassed? Don't say communists, because they weren't advocates of altruism (see Bolsheviks).

Not only that, fascism is associated with collectivism . . . . . nice job fatty! You really did a great job there!

Not only was fascism NOT founded as an anti-collectivism, it is associated with collectivism. Look it up, I am right.

This is why I enjoy it when you keep posting on yoru losing arguments, because when you are given enough rope you eventually hang yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heckler

That is correct, Mussolini considered it a collectivist movement, but NOT a socialist movement.....

It had strong elements of NATIONALISM which, really is the core of it IMO.
Being as the fascists were rabidly anti communist, it is kind of hard to equate them with most modern leftists movements....

It's funny that both the left and right use fascist as a slam against the other.....and even funnier that it actually works.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom1

Collectivism:

any of several types of social organization in which the individual is seen as being subordinate to a social collectivity such as a state, a nation, a race, or a social class. Collectivism may be contrasted with individualism, in which the rights and interests of the individual are emphasized

You are impressively wrong, fatty. Fascism is a form of collectivism and you, as you usually do, got it completely reversed.

You said fascism was anti-collectivism . . . . BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now, I fully expect you to try to dig yourself out of this hole and then, inevitably, dig yourself a bigger one.

Hey fatty, is this why you have so many people on "ignore"? Is it because of arguments you make like the one above that are so easily swatted aside?

For someone who hates to admit that they are wrong you sure are wrong a lot. If I hated to admit it that much then I would attempt to be correct every now and again . . . . but thats just me.

Heckler · #**222** (**permalink**) 05-20-2008, 09:54 AM

Okay, so I hadn't ever read any of Rand's works.....

...over the weekend I got a copy of Atlas Shrugged......
So far it is not, uh, compelling....can anyone who has read it tell me when the good part begins?

Or is there another that would be better to start with?

Dom1 · #**223** (**permalink**) 05-20-2008, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heckler

Okay, so I hadn't ever read any of Rand's works.....

...over the weekend I got a copy of Atlas Shrugged......
So far it is not, uh, compelling....can anyone who has read it tell me when the good part begins?

Or is there another that would be better to start with?

It is slow reading in places and I think that some people, no matter what, will not like it. It is an extremely long novel, so good luck with it, because if you don't like it right now you may be in for a long week . . . . . or two.

Fransisco's money speech is pretty good IMO.

If you want to get the gist of what Rand is saying, Galt's speech (very long), towards the end of the novel, pretty much sums it up.

You can read The Fountainhead. I actually liked it better, but it seems like people who have read them seem to like the first book they have read the best.

TakuanSoho · #**224** (**permalink**) 05-20-2008, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom1

It is slow reading in places and I think that some people, no matter what, will not like it. It is an extremely long novel, so good luck with it, because if you don't like it right now you may be in for a long week . . . . . or two.

Fransisco's money speech is pretty good IMO.

If you want to get the gist of what Rand is saying, Galt's speech (very long), towards the end of the novel, pretty much sums it up.

This is why I recommend the "Virtues of Selfishness". A good place to get the arguments without having to read all her works.

Dom1 · #**225** (**permalink**) 05-20-2008, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TakuanSoho

This is why I recommend the "Virtues of Selfishness". A good place to get the arguments without having to read all her works.

I agree. But if people want to say they have read Rand they can't hardly say they have not read either Atlas Shrugged or The Fountainhead. I read her the first time just because I saw her novels on a top 100 list and heard so much about them.

Heckler · #**226** (**permalink**) 05-20-2008, 11:03 AM

Thanks for the suggestions.....I'll stop at the library later....

Enjoy the day.....

ricechickie · #**227** (**permalink**) 05-20-2008, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heckler

Okay, so I hadn't ever read any of Rand's works.....

...over the weekend I got a copy of Atlas Shrugged......
So far it is not, uh, compelling....can anyone who has read it tell me when the good part begins?

Or is there another that would be better to start with?

I started with The Fountainhead.

There's also a short story, I forget the title, about the dangers of collectivism. I'll look it up.