If Christ Was God It Makes Him Less

BARK · #11 (**permalink**) 06-29-2006, 02:18 PM

pick it apart though I worte it a couple of years ago and I have evolved some of my arguments.

BARK · #12 (**permalink**) 06-29-2006, 02:20 PM

Quote:

I'm anxious to learn more about Mohammad, as I believe he was in the same vein as Jesus. The point is.. any Godly entity could manifest itself and make the statements and changes he wanted with a mere wave of his hand... these men struggled and suffered to get the word out.

Lion do you know Muhammad pretty well? I'l take up some you follow up and fill in the blanks.

Lion_Of_Islam · #13 (**permalink**) 06-29-2006, 02:25 PM

Both the Quran and the Bible state that The Lord Is ONE and only ONE entity

"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (The Noble Quran, 112:1-4)"

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4)"

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 12:29)"

You see how Jesus(pbuh) said OUR God. That includes Him if Im correct. That clearly shows you that Jesus(pbuh) was UNDER God, not Equal or the Part of the Same Entity.

The New Testament also states: ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"

Somebody elses turn. Im the only One that has qouted Scripture.

Lion_Of_Islam · #14 (**permalink**) 06-29-2006, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BARK

Lion do you know Muhammad pretty well? I'l take up some you follow up and fill in the blanks.

Yes, Ive read a whole book about His Life. Its right next to Me right now, so Is My Quran. I also have access to a wealth of Information on Islam in General.

Go Ahead.

BARK · #15 (**permalink**) 06-29-2006, 02:56 PM

Well dang it while I was outside I got a huge inspiration I am going to begin an important essay, I'll get back when I can Thanks to this forum my mind is running again it has been in limbo for a while. I'll post it as a new thread I'm sure it will get some kind of response. Lion I will get back to you about the muhammad thing. I have lots on him too. PEACE ! ! !

Politicon · #16 (**permalink**) 06-29-2006, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lion_Of_Islam

Both the Quran and the Bible state that The Lord Is ONE and only ONE entity

"Say: He is God, the One and Only; God, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him. (The Noble Quran, 112:1-4)"

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4)"

"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. (From the NIV Bible, Mark 12:29)"

You see how Jesus(pbuh) said OUR God. That includes Him if Im correct. That clearly shows you that Jesus(pbuh) was UNDER God, not Equal or the Part of the Same Entity.

The New Testament also states: ""Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good–except God alone." (From the NIV Bible, Mark 10:18)"

Somebody elses turn. Im the only One that has qouted Scripture.

And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
From this passage the idea is sometimes taken that Jesus is denying his own goodness, and therefore, throwing out any chance of being recognized as part of the Godhead. The standard explanation is that Jesus is essentially saying to the ruler, "Do you know what you are implying? You say I am good; but only God is good; therefore, you realize that you are identifying me with God?" [Brooks, commentary on Mark, 162] In Jewish thought, God was pre-eminently good, so that the ruler was indeed offering Jesus a compliment usually reserved for God. Since it is quite unlikely that the ruler truly believed that Jesus was identifiable as God the Son, this looks more like an effort by Jesus to make the man think about what he is saying before he blurts it out or engages in indiscriminate flattery.

Confirmation and elucidation of this explanation is found in Malina and Rohrbaugh's Social-Science Commentary on the Synoptic Gospels (123) in which they explain that in an agonistic (honor-shame) culture, a "compliment" like the rich young man's is actually a challenge and an attempt to put Jesus "on the spot" for they are an implicit accusation that one has been trying to rise above others. Jesus' only alternative was indeed to parry the compliment and redirect it to its appropriate subject (unless he wanted to reveal himself directly and fully, in which case, his claim would have been another challenge of honor to others!), thus showing himself honorable by diffusing any accusation that would arouse the envy of an opponent. Thus it is appropriate that Jesus parry the compliment in a way that does not specifically deny his membership in the Godhead (which, as noted, it does not).

In short, there isn't anything here that has Jesus denying goodness, or membership in the Godhead -- just teaching an overenthusiast and.or challenger a lesson. (http://www.tektonics.org/lp/mark1018.html)

Politicon · #17 (**permalink**) 06-29-2006, 08:03 PM

I would also like to ask you who in their right mind would create a religion that has a person do nothing, requires you to believe that a person was fully God and fully man, the trinity, people rise from the dead, and could perform so many miracles? If I’m inventing a religion that’s not what I come up with. I do something a little more believable then that. Even more amazing is the fact that so many people believe this. Could it be more then a story? In the words (kinda, but right idea) of C.S. Lewis if Christianity is false, it is of no importance, but if it is true then it is of the greatest importance. It can not be of somewhat importance.

Lion_Of_Islam · #18 (**permalink**) 06-30-2006, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Politicon

And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
From this passage the idea is sometimes taken that Jesus is denying his own goodness, and therefore, throwing out any chance of being recognized as part of the Godhead. The standard explanation is that Jesus is essentially saying to the ruler, "Do you know what you are implying? You say I am good; but only God is good; therefore, you realize that you are identifying me with God?" [Brooks, commentary on Mark, 162] In Jewish thought, God was pre-eminently good, so that the ruler was indeed offering Jesus a compliment usually reserved for God. Since it is quite unlikely that the ruler truly believed that Jesus was identifiable as God the Son, this looks more like an effort by Jesus to make the man think about what he is saying before he blurts it out or engages in indiscriminate flattery.

Confirmation and elucidation of this explanation is found in Malina and Rohrbaugh's Social-Science Commentary on the Synoptic Gospels (123) in which they explain that in an agonistic (honor-shame) culture, a "compliment" like the rich young man's is actually a challenge and an attempt to put Jesus "on the spot" for they are an implicit accusation that one has been trying to rise above others. Jesus' only alternative was indeed to parry the compliment and redirect it to its appropriate subject (unless he wanted to reveal himself directly and fully, in which case, his claim would have been another challenge of honor to others!), thus showing himself honorable by diffusing any accusation that would arouse the envy of an opponent. Thus it is appropriate that Jesus parry the compliment in a way that does not specifically deny his membership in the Godhead (which, as noted, it does not).

In short, there isn't anything here that has Jesus denying goodness, or membership in the Godhead -- just teaching an overenthusiast and.or challenger a lesson. (http://www.tektonics.org/lp/mark1018.html)

Sorta makes sense.

What about the other Scripture.

King Kuranes · #19 (**permalink**) 06-30-2006, 12:54 PM

I think you're all arguing over butterfly politics here. It cannot be proved that Jesus was a man with the spirit of God in him or just a man with himself in him any more than you can prove or disprove that Mohammed made up his visitation from God. The true question should be which religion will bring the most human happiness in the end. I have questions about Islam, the way it links its temporal law to an unchagable scripture and the way it seems to require its followers to wear Arabic clothing but arguing over the religion itself seems next to useless. The two religion are closley linked and most Christian/Islamic conflict I'm convinced is ethnic in its roots.

Politicon · #20 (**permalink**) 06-30-2006, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Kuranes

I think you're all arguing over butterfly politics here. It cannot be proved that Jesus was a man with the spirit of God in him or just a man with himself in him any more than you can prove or disprove that Mohammed made up his visitation from God. The true question should be which religion will bring the most human happiness in the end. I have questions about Islam, the way it links its temporal law to an unchagable scripture and the way it seems to require its followers to wear Arabic clothing but arguing over the religion itself seems next to useless. The two religion are closley linked and most Christian/Islamic conflict I'm convinced is ethnic in its roots.

I must disagree. While they do show many similarities the key is in this: Christianity teaches a triune God. It also teaches that Jesus died and rose for our sins and that only through grace can we be saved. This is the cornerstone of our faith. When the cornerstones are different, the faiths are not the same.