Diplomacy With Iran?

Deadshot · #21 (**permalink**) 12-19-2006, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smitty0311

QUIT STURRING THE POT! ITS NOT OVER UNTILL IRAQ IS ON ITS OWN! I DONT BELIEVE THAT EVEN THE LIBERALS WANT TO PULL OUT! ITS WAY TOO DETRAMENTAL TO OUR NATION TO LET TERROR WIN LIKE YOU WOULD LIKE IT TO! LIKE CLINTON DID! BAD THINGS EXIST IN THIS WORLD BECAUSE THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE POWER TO STOP IT DO NOTHING! IF YOU HAVE THE POWER YOU HAVE THE OBLIGATION! YOU SHOULD REALLY CHAT WITH MIDEASTER! HE IS A NATIVE IRAQI AND WILL GIVE YOU A NEW PERSPECTIVE ON IRAQI SUPPORT FOR US! HE WILL ALSO TELL YOU HOW THEIR IS NO CIVAL WAR AND HOW THE INSERGENTS ARE EXECUTING CIVILIANS IN THE NAME OF SUNNI AND SHIAA IN ORDER TO INCITE A CIVAL WAR! ITS SOMETHING YOU WONT FIND ON THE NEWS!

As I've said before, we need more troops right now, but we will be pulling out in the next few years.

As to the non-existence of a "Civil War" or not and the failure of the news to report something I know the news is reporting the deaths. DoD estimates put Iraqi deaths at over 50K. Approx. 6K just in this year. If it's not Civil War, then the Terrorists are getting quite good at there job...and we can't seem to stop them.

Smitty0311 · #22 (**permalink**) 12-19-2006, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadshot

As I've said before, we need more troops right now, but we will be pulling out in the next few years.

As to the non-existence of a "Civil War" or not and the failure of the news to report something I know the news is reporting the deaths. DoD estimates put Iraqi deaths at over 50K. Approx. 6K just in this year. If it's not Civil War, then the Terrorists are getting quite good at there job...and we can't seem to stop them.

ITS NOT AS EASY AS IT LOOKS. TERROR IS 75% FUCK WITH THE PEOPLE AND 25% FUCK WITH THE TROOPS! IT WAS FAR WORSE WITH SADDAM THOUGH! YOU CANT ARGUE THAT!

Deadshot · #23 (**permalink**) 12-19-2006, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smitty0311

ITS NOT AS EASY AS IT LOOKS. TERROR IS 75% FUCK WITH THE PEOPLE AND 25% FUCK WITH THE TROOPS! IT WAS FAR WORSE WITH SADDAM THOUGH! YOU CANT ARGUE THAT!

I agree. But there are still too many Iraqis dying, overall and per day, for anything else to dominate the news cylce.

You can't expect CNN, FOX or the Big three to lead with "Look how good we're doing in Iraq..." when a car bomb blows up and kills three Iraqis and wounds 15 others. Or, God forbid, an American Soldiers death. The lead for almost everyday this year has been death, because Iraqis and Americans ARE dying.

Terror is FUBAR, I agree. But no other message can, or will, get through until Terrorism is a weekly, monthly or a yearly occurance. When it happens daily, no good news WILL EVER get through...and you know that.

Smitty0311 · #24 (**permalink**) 12-19-2006, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadshot

I agree. But there are still too many Iraqis dying, overall and per day, for anything else to dominate the news cylce.

You can't expect CNN, FOX or the Big three to lead with "Look how good we're doing in Iraq..." when a car bomb blows up and kills three Iraqis and wounds 15 others. Or, God forbid, an American Soldiers death. The lead for almost everyday this year has been death, because Iraqis and Americans ARE dying.

Terror is FUBAR, I agree. But no other message can, or will, get through until Terrorism is a weekly, monthly or a yearly occurance. When it happens daily, no good news WILL EVER get through...and you know that.

LIKE I SAID! THEY ARE STILL DIEING AT A SLOWER RATE THAN WHEN UNDER SADDAM! AND BYE THE WAY I WANT TO KNOW YOUR ANSWER FOR WINNING THE WAR IN IRAQ? DO YOU HAVE ONE?

Deadshot · #25 (**permalink**) 12-19-2006, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smitty0311

LIKE I SAID! THEY ARE STILL DIEING AT A SLOWER RATE THAN WHEN UNDER SADDAM! AND BYE THE WAY I WANT TO KNOW YOUR ANSWER FOR WINNING THE WAR IN IRAQ? DO YOU HAVE ONE?

What was the rate under Saddam? 2003 - 2006 the rate of 50K dying would be almost 17K a year.

My answer for "winning" is to put in between 50K - 100K between now and next summer. Stop, or at least bring to a crawl the violence. Then, knowing that your leaving will probably start a Civil War, leave in 2008-2010. I realize that a war that's been fought for not decades, but centuries, will not stop because Democracy is there.

I'd leave the country better then I found it. 6 months before I pulled out I begin an almost daily campaign of "Look what you have now..." and show both the Iraqis and the world the Economy, infrastructure, etc. Then at the 3 month before pull out mark, I'd begin announcing both conservative and liberal predictions of the Greatness Iraq could achieve in peace. Then I'd leave. And when it fell apart I'd turn to the American people and world and explain the BILLION's of dollars we and our allies spent, the lives of our counrtymen and women and our allies that were spent there, the lives of the Iraqi's spent there, and shake my head and say they'll just have to learn on their own.

What, exactly, do you think would have happened if, let's say Spain and France invaded to stop our Civil War? I think Lee and Grant would have linked arm and arm, along with Davis and Lincoln to defeat the "invaders" and about 6 months after they left we would have had a Civil War.

We can't stop it, we can just hope to delay it. In the process showing them what their country could and should be. But I'd seriously doubt that they listen to our logic. Their hatred for each other is just to big. It would take a brutal dictator to bring them together again. Just like when Tito died, the United States is niether brutal nor dictitorial, so a Civil War will be the outcome. Hell I think we'll be back in 2014 or 2015 to enforce a peace, just like we did in Tito's back yard in the 90's when the U.N. went to Bosnia.

That's my plan.

Smitty0311 · #26 (**permalink**) 12-19-2006, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadshot

What was the rate under Saddam? 2003 - 2006 the rate of 50K dying would be almost 17K a year.

My answer for "winning" is to put in between 50K - 100K between now and next summer. Stop, or at least bring to a crawl the violence. Then, knowing that your leaving will probably start a Civil War, leave in 2008-2010. I realize that a war that's been fought for not decades, but centuries, will not stop because Democracy is there.

I'd leave the country better then I found it. 6 months before I pulled out I begin an almost daily campaign of "Look what you have now..." and show both the Iraqis and the world the Economy, infrastructure, etc. Then at the 3 month before pull out mark, I'd begin announcing both conservative and liberal predictions of the Greatness Iraq could achieve in peace. Then I'd leave. And when it fell apart I'd turn to the American people and world and explain the BILLION's of dollars we and our allies spent, the lives of our counrtymen and women and our allies that were spent there, the lives of the Iraqi's spent there, and shake my head and say they'll just have to learn on their own.

What, exactly, do you think would have happened if, let's say Spain and France invaded to stop our Civil War? I think Lee and Grant would have linked arm and arm, along with Davis and Lincoln to defeat the "invaders" and about 6 months after they left we would have had a Civil War.

We can't stop it, we can just hope to delay it. In the process showing them what their country could and should be. But I'd seriously doubt that they listen to our logic. Their hatred for each other is just to big. It would take a brutal dictator to bring them together again. Just like when Tito died, the United States is niether brutal nor dictitorial, so a Civil War will be the outcome. Hell I think we'll be back in 2014 or 2015 to enforce a peace, just like we did in Tito's back yard in the 90's when the U.N. went to Bosnia.

That's my plan.

I HAVE PROVEN THIS TIME AND TIME AGAIN! THERE IS NO CIVAL WAR IN IRAQ! THE IRAQIS DO INFACT LOVE THEIR NEW FREEDOMS AND ARE VERRY PASSIVE OF EACH OTHER! ISNT IT FUNNY THAT THE SECRATARIAN VIOLENCE IS ONLY GOING IN IRAQS CAPITOL! ITS BECAUSE THE INSERGENTS ARE TRYING TO INCITE A CIVAL WAR. ASK MIDEASTER! BYE THE WAY I DONT UNDERSTAND YOUR ANSWER. HOW WOUL YOU HANDEL THE CURRENT SITUATION?

Deadshot · #27 (**permalink**) 12-19-2006, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smitty0311

I HAVE PROVEN THIS TIME AND TIME AGAIN! THERE IS NO CIVAL WAR IN IRAQ! THE IRAQIS DO INFACT LOVE THEIR NEW FREEDOMS AND ARE VERRY PASSIVE OF EACH OTHER! ISNT IT FUNNY THAT THE SECRATARIAN VIOLENCE IS ONLY GOING IN IRAQS CAPITOL! ITS BECAUSE THE INSERGENTS ARE TRYING TO INCITE A CIVAL WAR. ASK MIDEASTER! BYE THE WAY I DONT UNDERSTAND YOUR ANSWER. HOW WOUL YOU HANDEL THE CURRENT SITUATION?

I can prove to you that walking under a ladder is not bad luck. I can prove to you that eating fatty foods hurts your health and that smoking will hurt you too.

But I know people, as I'm sure you do Smitty, that won't walk under a ladder, are fat and keep eating and people that laugh at the warning label on package as they light up a smoke.

It's not just about what is, it's the perception of what is. The perception from the New SecDef, who stated he felt we were not winning the war, to the media and Americans is that it's bad in Iraq. And sectarian violence has become the code word for Civil War. Like it or not those are the facts.

The ineptitude of Bush and Co. are just as much to blame as anything else.

As to the latter I stated how I'd handle the situation.

Smitty0311 · #28 (**permalink**) 12-19-2006, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadshot

I can prove to you that walking under a ladder is not bad luck. I can prove to you that eating fatty foods hurts your health and that smoking will hurt you too.

But I know people, as I'm sure you do Smitty, that won't walk under a ladder, are fat and keep eating and people that laugh at the warning label on package as they light up a smoke.

It's not just about what is, it's the perception of what is. The perception from the New SecDef, who stated he felt we were not winning the war, to the media and Americans is that it's bad in Iraq. And sectarian violence has become the code word for Civil War. Like it or not those are the facts.

The ineptitude of Bush and Co. are just as much to blame as anything else.

As to the latter I stated how I'd handle the situation.

YOUR EXACTLY RIGHT! THE LIBERALS WANT THE WORLD TO BELIEVE IRAQ IS WORSE THAN IT IS BECAUSE IT GETS THEM VOTES! THEY ARE ALSO MOTOVATING THE TERRORISTS IN THE PROCESS BY SHOWING A POSITIVE "positive for them" RESULT OF THEIR WRONG DOINGS! LIBERALS KNOW THAT THEY ARE MOTIVATING TERROR WITH THEIR NEGATIVE CAMPAINING AND THEY DONT CARE! ITS ALL ABOUT THE VOTES AND THE $$$$! FORGET THE LIVES OF THE TROOPS! THERE IS WHAT YOU PERCIEVE IT TO BE AND THERE IS WHAT I KNOW IT TO BE THROUGH MY OWN EXPERIENCE INSIDE IRAQ! NOT THE POLITICALLY CHARGED NEWS! BUT PERCEPTION IS FACT ISNT IT?

Deadshot · #29 (**permalink**) 12-19-2006, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Smitty0311

YOUR EXACTLY RIGHT! THE LIBERALS WANT THE WORLD TO BELIEVE IRAQ IS WORSE THAN IT IS BECAUSE IT GETS THEM VOTES!

So it's just a HUGE conspiracy? One in which the whole Republican party that had controlled Congress and the White House for six years couldn't defeat? Get real and put down your copy of the X-Files

THEY ARE ALSO MOTOVATING THE TERRORISTS IN THE PROCESS BY SHOWING A POSITIVE "positive for them" RESULT OF THEIR WRONG DOINGS!
If your right, then how come they're not stopping? Didn't the Terrorist get what they wanted - the Liberals want and the country's against the war? Again, get real.

LIBERALS KNOW THAT THEY ARE MOTIVATING TERROR WITH THEIR NEGATIVE CAMPAINING AND THEY DONT CARE!

I'm a Lib/Dem and I care. I don't want anyone dead and I don't want the Terrorists to win. Your simply wrong here. The world is not all black and white.

ITS ALL ABOUT THE VOTES AND THE $$$$! FORGET THE LIVES OF THE TROOPS!

One word: Halliburton. Shut up about the $$$$ and "LIVES OF THE TROOPS!" Bush and Rummy didn't have enough armour for the troops and Haliburton has made BILLIONS!!! Tell me who on the Dems side got any money out of the Iraq war? And isn't the Dems crying and begging for the troops to come home? If so, wouldn't there be less or no troop deaths with the troops here?

I'm begining to think your a real numskull.

THERE IS WHAT YOU PERCIEVE IT TO BE AND THERE IS WHAT I KNOW IT TO BE THROUGH MY OWN EXPERIENCE INSIDE IRAQ!

YOUR EXPERIENCE DOES NOT MATTER WHEN FACED WITH OTHER EXPERIENCES!!! THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES, THE IRAQ STUDY GROUP, THE VOTERS AND THE MILITARY ARE CALLING FOR A CHANGE IN POLICY AND MISSION. MY BET IS THEY DIDN'T CALL YOU!!!

Jeez Smitty, your one Marine, with your one story. I'm a History student with Government documents, Military document each of which has evidence given by politicians (from both sides) and officers. I am not going to believe one grunt over members of the Joint Chiefs, former members of the Joint Chiefs, the new SecDef, DoD documents, the majority of Americans and MY OWN TWO EYES! Get over yourself and bring more evidence to the discussion other then "I SEE'D IT...I SEE'D IT"...your starting to sound like the guy who saw Bigfoot or a UFO and forgot to take a picture.

NOT THE POLITICALLY CHARGED NEWS! BUT PERCEPTION IS FACT ISNT IT?

And the perception is, as well as the fact is that you have no evidence to back up your view. The American people have spoken, this is the begining of the end. When the new SecDef says to a question from a Democratic senator that we are not winning the war, it becomes fact.

It's over Smitty, it's now just a question of when.

Smitty0311 · #30 (**permalink**) 12-19-2006, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadshot

And the perception is, as well as the fact is that you have no evidence to back up your view. The American people have spoken, this is the begining of the end. When the new SecDef says to a question from a Democratic senator that we are not winning the war, it becomes fact.

It's over Smitty, it's now just a question of when.

I HAVE TONS OF EVEDENCE TO BACK UP MY TRUTHS! BUT LIBERALS HAVE LAUNCHED A CAMPAIN IN PERCEPTION! THEY DONT CARE HOW IT IS! THEY CARE ABOUT WHAT WAY DOES IT NEED TO BE TO GET THEM IN OFFICE. TELL ME THIS. WHERE DO I HAVE NO EVEDENCE TO BACK UP MY ARGUEMENT! PLEASE ANSWER THAT! ALL I HAVE IS FACT AND ALL YOU HAVE IS OPINION! I GET MY FACTS FROM THE STREETS OF IRAQ AND THE IRAQI PROPLE AND YOU GET YOUR OPINION FROM THE POLITICALLY CHARGED NEWS! IRAQ IS NOT IN A CIVAL WAR AND THE GOVERMENT HASNT FOUND ONE! IRAQ IS STILL WINNABLE AND THE ISG SAYS SO!

I DID NOT SAY THOES WORDS IN BLUE! THEY ARE NOT MY QUOTE. BLEASE BE MORE CAREFUL NEXT TIME.