Originally Posted by cat's meow

Sam...even being in our little forum proves to me about Canadian health care and how wrong the right is about this. OK, that is only this forum and the Canadians here...I come in contact with Canadians every day at work (both students and faculty) and I have NEVER heard the complaints that the right loves to report. I have been to Canada and talked to several people, THEY NEVER reported a problem. I have NEVER heard these problems.

But...WE DO PAY MORE THEN ANYONE IN THE WORLD FOR HEALTHCARE AND HERE IS WHAT WE GET!!!

The past three days I have sat at Methodist Hospital in Germantown (the very 'tonie' part of Memphis) and been with my girlfriend who just had her right hip replaced (major league surgery). I have told you that she works over at St Jude overseeing the Pathology Lab. Look, she has had someone there from the outside (Med Tech girlfriend, mom, me, son, dad) every minute of everyday and night since the surgery. I thought she was paranoid, but she was right Sam.

While the doctor and procedure was done by the Campbell Clinic doctors (some the of the best orthopedic surgeons in the world, thier manuals are used everywhere) the follow up care has been questionable at the VERY best. The nursing is VERY inconsistent from nurse to nurse depending on who is on call (only one of the five nurses were any good, and it was a male, former armed forces guy). The IV in her right arm got really f***ed up and her upper wrist has a giant knot and swelled way up. The food is just sh** and not cooked right (two meals came to her cold). We have had to bring her food. Another IV that had to be put in today so to get the TCRIT (sp?) count up was f***ed up also and bleeding. For what her insurance is paying this is total BS. There are a number of things about the stay that are bad...

Look, she was right, and if someone would not have been there ALL THE TIME then I am not sure what else would have gone wrong. She went through a very bad pain episode/fever yesterday when her pain block wore off and even with both me and her GF there the response was slow, she needed pain relief REALLY fast.

THIS IS WHAT WE ARE PAYING FOR? BULL SHIT FOLKS!!!

I DEFY ANYONE ON THE RIGHT TO TAKE UP THE CASE FOR A STUPID F***ING HEALTHCARE COMPANY IN THIS COUNTRY RIPPING US OFF LIKE THIS. WE GET THE BEST CARE IN THE WORLD?! YOU HAVE GOT TO BE F***ING KIDDING ME. I HAVE BEEN WATCHING FROM GROUND ZERO FOR THE PAST THREE DAYS.

FOLKS ON THE RIGHT, YOU CAN BASICALLY SHUT UP ABOUT HEALTHCARE AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED. THE CHOICE OF WHAT...S**TTY SERVICE!? YOU WOULD NOT PUT UP WITH THIS AT A DAMN MACYS OR RED LOBSTER!

Originally Posted by TheYellowDog

Well, first off, if you won't put up with it at a Macy's or Red Lobster why would you put up with it at a hospital? You have choices, go to a different hospital.

Originally Posted by TheYellowDog

Secondly, if you have this problem when there isn't a government supported monopoly, why wouldn't you have this problem afterwards? The healthcare isn't going to magically get better, the only difference will be that you won't notice that you're paying for it.

Originally Posted by TheYellowDog

Also, when the government starts paying for your healthcare they can start telling you to do and not do certain things that are beneficial to "the common good." For example, they can tell you that you can no longer drink alcohol, smoke, eat fatty foods, and they'll start telling you that you must walk this far in a day, you must do this many hours of physical activity, and you have to get a new car because you're putting out fumes that harm other's health. All because the cost of healthcare has become too large for the government to handle.

Originally Posted by cat's meow

Sam...even being in our little forum proves to me about Canadian health care and how wrong the right is about this. OK, that is only this forum and the Canadians here...I come in contact with Canadians every day at work (both students and faculty) and I have NEVER heard the complaints that the right loves to report. I have been to Canada and talked to several people, THEY NEVER reported a problem. I have NEVER heard these problems.

But...WE DO PAY MORE THEN ANYONE IN THE WORLD FOR HEALTHCARE AND HERE IS WHAT WE GET!!!

The past three days I have sat at Methodist Hospital in Germantown (the very 'tonie' part of Memphis) and been with my girlfriend who just had her right hip replaced (major league surgery). I have told you that she works over at St Jude overseeing the Pathology Lab. Look, she has had someone there from the outside (Med Tech girlfriend, mom, me, son, dad) every minute of everyday and night since the surgery. I thought she was paranoid, but she was right Sam.

While the doctor and procedure was done by the Campbell Clinic doctors (some the of the best orthopedic surgeons in the world, thier manuals are used everywhere) the follow up care has been questionable at the VERY best. The nursing is VERY inconsistent from nurse to nurse depending on who is on call (only one of the five nurses were any good, and it was a male, former armed forces guy). The IV in her right arm got really f***ed up and her upper wrist has a giant knot and swelled way up. The food is just sh** and not cooked right (two meals came to her cold). We have had to bring her food. Another IV that had to be put in today so to get the TCRIT (sp?) count up was f***ed up also and bleeding. For what her insurance is paying this is total BS. There are a number of things about the stay that are bad...

Look, she was right, and if someone would not have been there ALL THE TIME then I am not sure what else would have gone wrong. She went through a very bad pain episode/fever yesterday when her pain block wore off and even with both me and her GF there the response was slow, she needed pain relief REALLY fast.

THIS IS WHAT WE ARE PAYING FOR? BULL SHIT FOLKS!!!

I DEFY ANYONE ON THE RIGHT TO TAKE UP THE CASE FOR A STUPID F***ING HEALTHCARE COMPANY IN THIS COUNTRY RIPPING US OFF LIKE THIS. WE GET THE BEST CARE IN THE WORLD?! YOU HAVE GOT TO BE F***ING KIDDING ME. I HAVE BEEN WATCHING FROM GROUND ZERO FOR THE PAST THREE DAYS.

FOLKS ON THE RIGHT, YOU CAN BASICALLY SHUT UP ABOUT HEALTHCARE AS FAR AS I AM CONCERNED. THE CHOICE OF WHAT...S**TTY SERVICE!? YOU WOULD NOT PUT UP WITH THIS AT A DAMN MACYS OR RED LOBSTER!

Originally Posted by TheYellowDog

Well, first off, if you won't put up with it at a Macy's or Red Lobster why would you put up with it at a hospital? You have choices, go to a different hospital.
.
I'm insured by a fortune 500 company and I only get a handful of choices of hospitals. Also certain hospitals deal with only certain types of ailments. So you goto St. Luke's to get Chemo, but you'd goto Independence Regional for therapy for an accident. So for me, living in Missouri, I couldn't just hop on down to the next "Red Lobster" and try again. All the Hospitals work in conjunction here in Missouri and Kansas.

Also if one Red Lobster treated me bad I probably wouldn't go to another city to eat at another one, I'd eat somewhere else. Ergo I only have a finite number of Hospital's in a hundred mile area here, going to another one may not only be a severe inconvienence but also impractical.
.

Secondly, if you have this problem when there isn't a government supported monopoly, why wouldn't you have this problem afterwards? The healthcare isn't going to magically get better, the only difference will be that you won't notice that you're paying for it.
.
You mention the word OSHA in the work place here and people in power get scared. Because a OSHA problem could be very bad, because that signifies a GOVERNMENT problem.

So if the Medical profession was ruled by those kind of rules, rules where a Government fine or warning could hurt the business things would change.

I'd also like to point out Doctor billing here. My sister didn't have insurance for a while and we had the same Dr. He charged her only $35 an office visit for her newborn. Our newborn was charged the regular office visit fee of $75. Why? Because our insurance paid, and she couldn't pay that. Our Dr. was being kind, but his actions highlight a problem with the system. 15 minutes of his time isn't worth $75, but it's what the market will bear. If you changed the market Dr.'s would still make money and do well, but you could begin to manage costs better.

Stories of Insurance companies acting without Morals or Scrupples are to numberous to mention. That fraud would slow down or stop with Government control. You can still defraud the Welfare System, but if you get caught it's a Federal Crime carrying both Jail time and fines. No corrporate officer is going to perpetrate the kinds of fraud where the patients you defraud could send you to jail.
.

Also, when the government starts paying for your healthcare they can start telling you to do and not do certain things that are beneficial to "the common good." For example, they can tell you that you can no longer drink alcohol, smoke, eat fatty foods, and they'll start telling you that you must walk this far in a day, you must do this many hours of physical activity, and you have to get a new car because you're putting out fumes that harm other's health. All because the cost of healthcare has become too large for the government to handle.
.
So you tell the fat guy your insurance will be dropped unless you keep your weight down and here's the program we want you to follow. What's wrong with that? I am a fat guy, that kind of motivation would definitely get me to lose the 50-60 lbs. I need to lose. Also telling someone to stop smoking or stop drinking because it's destroying their health wouldn't hurt the Medical profession, it'd hurt Marlboro and Budwieser.
.

Of course, they way we're heading we don't seem to care how the government controls our lives.

Originally Posted by TheYellowDog

Well, reading over what I've recieved, it seems more like you have a problem with insurance rather than your health care, huh?

Maybe the government does need to step in and make a reform on the insurance industry, seeing as it's really not a service or good, especially when they refuse to do their job. But, government controlled health care, I'm afraid, is going to end up like government controlled schools. I don't know what freedoms you plan to take away to give children health care, but I don't mind loosing any property to do so myself, though, I do see a problem with the government stepping in and taking property away from others who are unwilling to part with it. John Locke was all about Life, Liberty, and Property.


One more thing, SG warnings are a lot different than mandates to action. The warnings are exactly that, warnings, you can heed them or not, it's your choice.

Originally Posted by crowonapost

TRUTH MY ASS.

Let me get this straight.

So we then send the entire military might to attack Iraq while giving limp dick finances to the battle in Afghanistan & support under Bush means





Bush Quotes about Bin Laden
"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him."
- G.W. Bush, 9/13/01
"I want justice...There's an old poster out West, as I recall, that said, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive,'"
- G.W. Bush, 9/17/01, UPI
"...Secondly, he is not escaping us. This is a guy, who, three months ago, was in control of a county [sic]. Now he's maybe in control of a cave. He's on the run. Listen, a while ago I said to the American people, our objective is more than bin Laden. But one of the things for certain is we're going to get him running and keep him running, and bring him to justice. And that's what's happening. He's on the run, if he's running at all. So we don't know whether he's in cave with the door shut, or a cave with the door open -- we just don't know...."
- Bush, in remarks in a Press Availablity with the Press Travel Pool,
The Prairie Chapel Ranch, Crawford TX, 12/28/01, as reported on
official White House site

Then....


"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02
"I am truly not that concerned about him."
- G.W. Bush, repsonding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts,
3/13/02 (The New American, 4/8/02)

WILL WE FIND HIM IN IRAQ?????

Originally Posted by cat's meow

I think you need to pull yer' head out of yer' a**, I seem to have found much information on all you posted. I spent 6 years in the Army myself (during some of those attacks) but there was response to all these attacks you listed (so haphazardly I might add)...stop ranting on things you seem to be short of knowledge on. It took me very little time to look this stuff up. I support you as a uniformed service person but your rants this evening have grown old and I finally had to just respond to the most outrageous claims and screwed up opinion you seem to have. Man, I just got sick and tired of reading your crap and it was very easy to find a counter argument. I feel sorry for the other guys you work with who have to listen to your crapping on US voters like me who do support the military VERY MUCH (yes, I am a Democrat and there are a surprising number of them in the military my friend...well...surprising for you maybe).


Aftermath and arrests
Agents and bomb technicians of the U. S. Treasury Department's Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) responded to the scene of the blast. An ATF bomb technician subsequently found the axle in the bomb crater with the VIN number of the Ryder truck that was used to contain the explosives. Further investigation by ATF found that the vehicle had been rented by a Palestinian named Mohammad Salameh. Yousef's friends reported the van was stolen in an attempt to slow investigators down.

On March 4, 1993 authorities announced the capture of Salameh. In May 1994, Salameh, Nidal Ayyad, Mahmud Abouhalima and Ahmad Ajaj were each convicted and sentenced to life imprisonment for the World Trade Center bombing.

In a sweep the same day, Salameh's arrest led to the apartment of Abdul Rahman Yasin in Jersey City, New Jersey, which Yasin was sharing with his mother, in the same building as Ramzi Yousef's apartment. Yasin was taken to FBI headquarters in Newark, New Jersey, and was then released. The next day, he flew back to Iraq, via Amman, Jordan. Yasin was later indicted for the attack, and eventually in 2001 he was placed on the initial list of the FBI Most Wanted Terrorists, on which he remains a fugitive today. He disappeared prior to 2003's U.S. coalition invasion in Operation Iraqi Freedom.

The capture of Salameh and Yasin led authorities to Ramzi Yousef's apartment, where they found bomb-making materials and a business card from Mohammed Jamal Khalifa. Khalifa was arrested in relation to the crime on December 14, 1994, and was deported to Jordan by the INS on May 5, 1995. He was acquitted by a Jordanian court and now lives as a free man in Saudi Arabia.



Indictment
On June 21, 2001 an indictment was issued in United States District Court for the Eastern District of Virginia in Alexandria, Virginia charging the following people with murder, conspiracy, and other charges related to the bombing:

Ahmed Ibrahim Al-Mughassil
Abdelkarim Hussein Mohamed Al-Nasser
Ali Saed Bin Ali El-Hoorie
Ibrahim Salih Mohammed Al-Yacoub
Nine other Saudis
One Lebanese man listed as "John Doe."
The remaining five were Sa'ed Al-Bahar, Saleh Ramadan, Ali Al-Marhoun, Mustafa Al-Mu'alem and Fadel Al-Alawe.

In 2004, the 9/11 Commission noted that Osama Bin Laden was seen being congratulated on the day of the Khobar attack, and this raised the possibility that he may have helped the group, possibly by helping to obtain the explosives or the sophisticated timing device used to enable the escape of the perpetrators. According to the United States, classfied evidence suggests that the government of Iran was the key sponsor of the incident, and several high ranking members of their military may have been involved.[3] The U.S. government may have been hesitant to more aggressively pursue the offenders within the Iranian military due to the recent rise of a more reformist government and a desire to enhance relations with Iran at the time.



Capture, prosecution, deaths of perpetrators
The criminal investigation ended with three hundred counts against the defendants. These counts included the utilization of weapons of mass destruction (WMD) against American targets, conspiracy to kill officers and employees of the U.S. government, conspiracy to murder U.S. nationals, and conspiracy to destroy U.S. buildings by the use of explosives. Defendants included:

Wadih El-Hage, the leader of the East African al Qaeda cell who arranged for the facilitation and delivery of false travel documents.
Mohammed Odeh, a technical advisor to al Qaeda operatives responsible for carrying out the bombings.
Mohamed Al-Owhali, an expert in explosives, hijacking and bombings who asked bin Laden for an assignment to execute jihad and personally threw stun grenades in an effort to force the embassy guard to allow him entry into the parking garage.
Khalfan Khamis Mohammed, who purchased the white Suzuki used to transport the components of the bomb, rented the house in Tanzania which operated as a bomb factory, helped put the bomb together, and loaded the bomb into the truck.
In a federal trial in New York City that ended in June 2001, Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-Owhali, Mohammed Odeh, Wadih el Hage, and Khalfan Khamis Mohamed were convicted of perpetrating the Nairobi bombing and were sentenced to life imprisonment without the possibility of parole.

Two Egyptian citizens, Ibrahim Hussein Abdel Hadi Eidarous and Adel Mohanned Abdul Almagid Bary, whose fingerprints were allegedly found on the letters claiming responsibility for the bombings, were arrested in London in 1999 by Scotland Yard at the request of the U.S. They were extradited and jailed.

Other alleged conspirators in custody include Khalid al-Fawwaz, a Saudi dissident who had been living in London since 1994. Al-Fawwaz was accused by the U.S. of helping Osama bin Laden to coordinate the attacks, and was ordered to be extradited. He denied the charges and remains in custody in London pending an appeal.[7] [8]

Anas Al-Liby was thought to have been captured in Afghanistan in 2002 during the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan but it was later proven to be false; Ahmed Khalfan Ghailani is believed to have been captured in Pakistan in 2004, and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, whose brother was one of the suicide bombers, and who helped another of the bombers to get a Yemeni passport, is currently in the custody of the U.S. at an undisclosed location.

Mohammed Atef, indicted on November 4, 1998 for his role in orchestrating the attacks, was later reported killed by U.S. bombs during the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan.

Saif al-Adel is reportedly in the custody of the Iranian government.



Consequences and after-effects
President Bill Clinton declared, "If, as it now appears, this was an act of terrorism, it was a despicable and cowardly act. We will find out who was responsible and hold them accountable".

On November 3, 2002, the CIA fired a AGM-114 Hellfire missile from a Predator UAV at a vehicle carrying Abu Ali al-Harithi, a suspected planner of the bombing plot. Also in the vehicle was Ahmed Hijazi, a U.S. citizen. Both were killed. This operation was carried out on Yemeni soil.