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  #131 (permalink)  
Old 01-31-2008, 10:53 PM
PLeasant's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nathanbforrest45 View Post
It is statements like your last sentence that prove to me Ron Paul should never even be allowed to visit the White House, much less live in it.
Will you please grow a pair! I hate to break it to you jack ass but this country was founded following a very intense and bloody revolution. Not to mention the current administration is responsible for the very violent deaths of over 5000 US soldiers. Yet somehow I'm the one you're scared of...

Don't be a sniveling little worm your whole life. Chicks dig guys with scars. Hasn't anyone told you?
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  #132 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2008, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Sieg Howdy View Post
When people refer to his "fringe views" I don't think they're talking about his political stances, but the views of the people who lead his campaigns. There is some good to a libertarian candidacy, but it's been spoiled by a few bad rascist conspiracy goof apples. Until he dis-associates himself from the anti-semitic conspiracy crackpots who cry out his name, I don't see why anyone should vote for him. Do we really want to be associated with racist oppression?
Funny! I've watched many Paul youtube videos. I've watched him debate. I've yet to seethe 'few bad rascist conspiracy goof apples' nor heard their views. Where are they?

Are you sure they aren't plants, paid by whoever would like him out of the picture. Are you sure you aren't being duped out of supporting the best man for the job that needs to be done to clean up this country?
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  #133 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2008, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by pipes View Post
Sheep - or Coconspirators...

Sheep just go along with the shepherding.

You seem to recognize that there is a problem , and you play along in an attempt to get the outcome YOU want. That makes you a coconspirator.

Sheep can be forgiven for their ignorance.

People like you are just GUILTY.
<<<<YAAAAAWWWWWNNNNNN>>> Oh, I'm sorry. The same old tiring shit gets really, well, tiring.
Since you can't seem to understand the logic...lets try it this way.
Say you decide to build a house. What comes first? Do you finish the roof and THEN decide to build a foundation?
Maybe it works differently in your world. But in the world we "guilty" live in, you first build the foundation. See, you need something to support that roof.
Now apply that to the government with the president being the "roof." Without a foundation, "Congress", to support the "roof", you have nothing.
So I'll gladly plead "guilty" of working on the "foundation" so a President like a Ron Paul can one day be elected.
Your " I want it all and I want it now" views are just not realistic.
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  #134 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2008, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by justme View Post
<<<<YAAAAAWWWWWNNNNNN>>> Oh, I'm sorry. The same old tiring shit gets really, well, tiring.
Since you can't seem to understand the logic...lets try it this way.
Say you decide to build a house. What comes first? Do you finish the roof and THEN decide to build a foundation?
Maybe it works differently in your world. But in the world we "guilty" live in, you first build the foundation. See, you need something to support that roof.
Now apply that to the government with the president being the "roof." Without a foundation, "Congress", to support the "roof", you have nothing.
So I'll gladly plead "guilty" of working on the "foundation" so a President like a Ron Paul can one day be elected.
Your " I want it all and I want it now" views are just not realistic.
You're an idiot, and your anology isn't just stupid, it's a twisted thing just like you.

You aren't worthy of an opinion, since you don't even understand how a power structure works. Now pick up your shovel and get back to work.
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  #135 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2008, 11:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PLeasant View Post
Will you please grow a pair! I hate to break it to you jack ass but this country was founded following a very intense and bloody revolution. Not to mention the current administration is responsible for the very violent deaths of over 5000 US soldiers. Yet somehow I'm the one you're scared of...

Don't be a sniveling little worm your whole life. Chicks dig guys with scars. Hasn't anyone told you?

So, you do support the violent overthrow of the government?

You are no better than those far left socialist who believes you and only you has the answer and everyone else should just follow lockstep in whatever you tell us to believe.

If Paul were actually by some miracle to be elected and immediately began to attempt to put half of the changes into practice you will have a revolution in this country. All you need do is see what has happened in the former Soviet Union when they went from a completely communistic state to a capitalistic economy. The people did not want to be free, they wanted the government to continue taking care of them. The same is true here. The entire Democractic Party and a good portion of the Republicans all want Mother Washington to take care of them.

My misgivings regarding Paul are primarily that the movement has attacted too many groups and people like you, bullies. Furthermore I think while I agree with about 90 percent of Paul's economic policies I don't think he is in touch with reality in how quietly the left will go.

He does not have a snowballs chance in hell of winning this election no matter how many joss sticks you and the other paid posters burn for him. He certainly has no chance of winning against Clinton and to me that is the real threat against America right now. I sincerely believe Hilliary in the White House will not be unlike Stalin in the Kremlin
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  #136 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2008, 01:33 PM
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Well nathan, that's what you get when you sell out principals for comfort.
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http://zionistwatch.files.wordpress....ng-zionism.jpg
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  #137 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2008, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IcyPeaceMaker View Post
Well nathan, that's what you get when you sell out principals for comfort.
I do not believe I have sold out my principles. I believe I am acting much more rationally than you. You are putting all your eggs in a basket with no bottom. Paul cannot win the presidential election. He would do better acting as an activist or watchdog in Congress to keep spending down. what you say, he is only one person? Well, the same goes for those of us who may believe his message but we cannot put him in office.

No, I am entitled to my opinions regarding Paul and his supporters. You people scare me. More than once on these threads I have heard that you would be willing to take to the streets in a revolution if Paul is not elected. That scares me for my country's sake.

I would always take an injustice over anarchy. I can fight to change an injustice, I can only hope to survive anarchy

Oh, you never answered me regarding the proof that you would come defend me with a gun. I asked if you were now or have been in the military, or were you a member of law enforcement, or have you ever had to defend yourself with a weapon.

Can you answer that question or was your post claiming you would defend me mere bravado?
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  #138 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2008, 01:54 PM
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You can believe about me whatever you wish.
Quote:
Famous Thomas Jefferson Quote


"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure."
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"I did but teach the age to quit their cloggs By the plain rules of ancient Liberty, When lo! a barbarous noise surrounded me, Of owls and cuckoos, asses, apes and dogs." John Milton
The jews need to throw a holocaust, they owe us one.
http://zionistwatch.files.wordpress....ng-zionism.jpg
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  #139 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2008, 01:58 PM
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How to stupidise people

What makes people stupid in "educated" societies? We suggest a few factors...

On this page:
• Either/Or controversies >
• Multi-valued orientation >
• Meta-territorial >
• Dead-level abstracting >
• Politics and advertising >
• Useless Definitions >
• Circular reasoning >
• Connotations & weak inferences >
• Verbal autointoxication >
• Emoturbation >
• Media example of Either/Or controversy >

Either/Or controversies
"Controversy equalizes fools and wise men…and the fools know it."
(Oliver Wendell Holmes)

Fools thrive when controversies arise over false dichotomies. In other words, when multiple-choice issues get reduced to "either/or" questions. For example:

"What can be done about Evil Dictator X?" (Multiple choice)
"It's either military action or nothing" (Either/or)

Reducing multi-valued issues to two-valued (either/or, yes/no, right/wrong, etc) controversies has the effect of stimulating territorial ("us" vs "them") instincts and emotional identification with a "side". At this point most people begin to look stupidised.

Multi-valued orientation
If someone says: "you won't find truth in the media", you might feel tempted to agree or disagree outright (two-valued orientation). An arguably more intelligent approach involves a multi-valued rating of the statement. Say between 0% and 100%, depending on the percentage of media content judged as untruthful. For example: "I'd say that statement was correct in 20% of cases".

Meta-territorial
Many people seem so conditioned to see issues in territorial (two-valued) terms, that any other approach looks like a threat to them. A multi-valued approach to international problems thus seems "soft" or "appeasing" ("bad" traits which favour the side of "evil"). Any criticism of a fundamentalist's "good versus evil" dogma will seem (to the fundalmentalist) like the Devil's work.

Dead-level abstracting
We can't communicate well without a degree of abstracting/generalising. However, a type of generalising known as "dead-level abstracting" (so named by Wendell Johnson) can have a stupidising effect. This happens when you get stuck at one level of abstraction. The following statement (taken from a UK alt-media site) seems a good example:

"…institutionalised media corruption means that power is freed to manipulate the public to suit whatever cynical ends it chooses. This is the secret of elite control in an ostensibly 'democratic' society."

This consists of nothing but high-level abstractions. It boils down to: "Media corruption means control of the public". The words "elite", "power", etc, add nothing specific. Stupidisation occurs when people read into such statements anything but high-level abstraction. (Note that such statements seem written in such a way as to make them appear more specific/factual).

At the other end of the spectrum one finds simple reports of sensory perceptions – the lowest level of verbal abstracting. For example, gossip containing reports of what somebody said:

"She said I should mind my own business. I said you're one to talk. She said at least I'm being honest. I said are you calling me a liar you dirty bitch…"

It takes a higher level of abstracting than this to conclude: "So we exchanged insults and got nowhere – it was a waste of time". Constantly mixing high and low levels of abstraction prevents IQs from plummeting.

Politics and advertising
Politicians use "high" dead-level abstracting to avoid specific criticisms and to stifle probing debate. For example:

"I make no excuse for our tough stance in the struggle to protect our nation's way of life from those who would threaten it". (The words "tough" and "struggle" don't sound abstract. But what, in this context, beyond highly abstract judgements, could they denote?)

Advertisers use dead-level abstracting to associate nothing but abstract qualities to brand names (eg: "Abbey – because life's complicated enough"). The brand names connote abstract qualities; the ads often denote nothing factual/specific about the products being sold. Experience "Coke: the real thing", not fizzy water with added sugar and chemicals. ("The real thing" doesn't sound abstract. Don't expect high-level abstractions to sound abstract).



Useless Definitions
The person who wrote "the secret of elite control" (see above) might argue that a brief definition of "elite" would clarify his meaning. But definitions operate at levels of abstraction at least as high as the terms they define. A dictionary definition of "dog" says: "carnivorous quadruped". A bigger dictionary might add "of canine genus". Look up "canine", and you get "dog".

Definitions don't help much to clarify high-level abstractions. Whenever you suspect someone of stupidising you with words (intentionally or not), demand specific examples, names/dates, reports of sensory data, verifiable facts – lower-level abstractions. Then, if necessary, demand definitions – to see if the specifics fit (by definition) the abstractions.

Circular reasoning
"High" dead-level abstracting often entails circular logic. Here's an example (from a UK alt-media forum):

"Although the Guardian is ostensibly a truth-loving newspaper, the reality is that it continually suppresses truth, as it's essentially part of power, whose main function is truth-suppression".

Circular reasoning provides nothing but self-confirming abstractions: "X suppresses truth because it's part of Y, which suppresses truth". And how do we know that X is part of Y? "Er… because X suppresses truth". (Some good examples of circular reasoning in classical economic theory are given in an extract from The Tyranny of Words by Stuart Chase).

Connotations & weak inferences
The term "conspiracy theory" doesn't denote crackpot theories. It merely has the connotation of "crackpot" to those who infer that only crackpots have theories about conspiracies.

We can take the connotations/inferences further. George Bush theorised about a secret plot between Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. Some might call that a "conspiracy theory" (a theory about a conspiracy). But since the media assures us that Bush is no crackpot, we can infer that what took place between Osama and Saddam was no "conspiracy" (it was merely a "plot to attack America" – not half as wacko a claim, you see).

See how far you can get with connotations, inferences and circular reasoning? You can spin out whole newspaper columns – even books – just by building one inference on top of another. And if you cleverly add in some "high" dead-level abstracting, nobody can refute you with verifiable facts – because your claims operate at a level of abstraction above mere facts. Welcome to the rewarding world of stupidising PR, political speech-writing and media punditry.

Verbal autointoxication
Mix together the ingredients described on this page, and you get a stupidising cocktail – convoluted verbal virtual realities resting on little that resembles verifiable fact. Such cocktails often carry the label "news".

For example, a report by the BBC's political editor, Andrew Marr, on the official "ending" of the Iraq war (when the statue of Saddam toppled, in April 2003). Notice that Marr's "report" contains few (if any) verifiable facts – it consists almost entirely of connotations, weak inferences, speculations, two-valued (eg right/wrong) controversy and dead-level abstracting:

"[At Downing Street] the main mood is of unbridled relief… it draws a line under what, before the war, had been a period of – well, a faint air of pointlessness, almost, was hanging over Downing Street. There were all these slightly tawdry arguments and scandals. That is now history.

"Mr Blair is well aware that all his critics out there in the party and beyond aren't going to thank him (because they're only human) for being right when they've been wrong. And he knows that there might be trouble ahead, as I said. But I think this is very, very important for him. It gives him a new freedom and a new self-confidence.

"He confronted many critics. I don't think anybody, after this, is going to be able to say of Tony Blair that he's somebody who is driven by the drift of public opinion or focus groups or opinion polls. He took all of those on. He said that they would be able to take Baghdad without a bloodbath, and that in the end the Iraqis would be celebrating. And on both of those points he has been proved conclusively right. And it would be entirely ungracious, even for his critics, not to acknowledge that tonight he stands as a larger man and a stronger prime minister as a result." (Andrew Marr, BBC1 10pm news, April 9, 2003)

Emoturbation
Watch the news coverage after any big disaster to see shameless, full-frontal emoturbating. It's a good idea to carefully distinguish the understandable emotions of victims from those of the professional (and amateur) emoturbators. There seems to be a spectrum from sympathy and empathy to neurotic wallowing and calculated Blair-style acting.

Usual message conveyed: "Something must be done – not in proportion to the relatively small risk of the tragedy reoccurring any time soon – but in proportion to the truly momentous scale of my emotional arousal".

Media example of Either/Or controversy
The US media watchdog, FAIR, noted the media's either/or presentation on the issue of going to war following 9/11:

"... it's likely that many people asked to choose whether or not to go to war had never seen an alternative to war articulated in a mainstream outlet."
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"I did but teach the age to quit their cloggs By the plain rules of ancient Liberty, When lo! a barbarous noise surrounded me, Of owls and cuckoos, asses, apes and dogs." John Milton
The jews need to throw a holocaust, they owe us one.
http://zionistwatch.files.wordpress....ng-zionism.jpg
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  #140 (permalink)  
Old 02-01-2008, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IcyPeaceMaker View Post
You can believe about me whatever you wish.
Why is it that when we ask one of you elites a direct question we always get the run around? I don't think you have any independent thoughts in your head, just what your handlers feed in there.

Am I to believe that you won't actually defend me with a gun? Other than your posting various postings can you tell me why I should trust you with anything except the ability to dance around a subject?
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