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Old 10-04-2007, 10:22 AM
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Default New Secret Bush Documents Reveal Torture

Bush and Gonzales' legal actions have justified the use of torture against Americans.

The CIA knew so little about torture, that they had to have a crash course on old Soviet and Saudi Arabian methods. The USA took a big step back into the dark ages under the Bush Administration.

Secret U.S. Endorsement of Severe Interrogations - New York Times

Secret U.S. Endorsement of Severe Interrogations
By SCOTT SHANE, DAVID JOHNSTON and JAMES RISEN

WASHINGTON, Oct. 3 — When the Justice Department publicly declared torture “abhorrent” in a legal opinion in December 2004, the Bush administration appeared to have abandoned its assertion of nearly unlimited presidential authority to order brutal interrogations.

But soon after Alberto R. Gonzales’s arrival as attorney general in February 2005, the Justice Department issued another opinion, this one in secret. It was a very different document, according to officials briefed on it, an expansive endorsement of the harshest interrogation techniques ever used by the Central Intelligence Agency.

The new opinion, the officials said, for the first time provided explicit authorization to barrage terror suspects with a combination of painful physical and psychological tactics, including head-slapping, simulated drowning and frigid temperatures.

Mr. Gonzales approved the legal memorandum on “combined effects” over the objections of James B. Comey, the deputy attorney general, who was leaving his job after bruising clashes with the White House. Disagreeing with what he viewed as the opinion’s overreaching legal reasoning, Mr. Comey told colleagues at the department that they would all be “ashamed” when the world eventually learned of it.

Later that year, as Congress moved toward outlawing “cruel, inhuman and degrading” treatment, the Justice Department issued another secret opinion, one most lawmakers did not know existed, current and former officials said. The Justice Department document declared that none of the C.I.A. interrogation methods violated that standard.

The classified opinions, never previously disclosed, are a hidden legacy of President Bush’s second term and Mr. Gonzales’s tenure at the Justice Department, where he moved quickly to align it with the White House after a 2004 rebellion by staff lawyers that had thrown policies on surveillance and detention into turmoil.

Congress and the Supreme Court have intervened repeatedly in the last two years to impose limits on interrogations, and the administration has responded as a policy matter by dropping the most extreme techniques. But the 2005 Justice Department opinions remain in effect, and their legal conclusions have been confirmed by several more recent memorandums, officials said. They show how the White House has succeeded in preserving the broadest possible legal latitude for harsh tactics.

A White House spokesman, Tony Fratto, said Wednesday that he would not comment on any legal opinion related to interrogations. Mr. Fratto added, “We have gone to great lengths, including statutory efforts and the recent executive order, to make it clear that the intelligence community and our practices fall within U.S. law” and international agreements.

More than two dozen current and former officials involved in counterterrorism were interviewed over the past three months about the opinions and the deliberations on interrogation policy. Most officials would speak only on the condition of anonymity because of the secrecy of the documents and the C.I.A. detention operations they govern.
...
The policies set off bruising internal battles, pitting administration moderates against hard-liners, military lawyers against Pentagon chiefs and, most surprising, a handful of conservative lawyers at the Justice Department against the White House in the stunning mutiny of 2004. But under Mr. Gonzales and Mr. Bradbury, the Justice Department was wrenched back into line with the White House.

After the Supreme Court ruled in 2006 that the Geneva Conventions applied to prisoners who belonged to Al Qaeda, President Bush for the first time acknowledged the C.I.A.’s secret jails and ordered their inmates moved to Guantánamo Bay, Cuba. The C.I.A. halted its use of waterboarding, or pouring water over a bound prisoner’s cloth-covered face to induce fear of suffocation.

But in July, after a monthlong debate inside the administration, President Bush signed a new executive order authorizing the use of what the administration calls “enhanced” interrogation techniques — the details remain secret — and officials say the C.I.A. again is holding prisoners in “black sites” overseas. The executive order was reviewed and approved by Mr. Bradbury and the Office of Legal Counsel.
...
Never in history had the United States authorized such tactics.
...
With virtually no experience in interrogations, the C.I.A. had constructed its program in a few harried months by consulting Egyptian and Saudi intelligence officials and copying Soviet interrogation methods

...
Some intelligence officers say that many of Mr. Mohammed’s statements proved exaggerated or false. One problem, a former senior agency official said, was that the C.I.A.’s initial interrogators were not experts on Mr. Mohammed’s background or Al Qaeda, and it took about a month to get such an expert to the secret prison. The former official said many C.I.A. professionals now believe patient, repeated questioning by well-informed experts is more effective than harsh physical pressure.
...
“I know from the military that if you tell someone they can do a little of this for the country’s good, some people will do a lot of it for the country’s better,” Mr. Hutson said. Like other military lawyers, he also fears that official American acceptance of such treatment could endanger Americans in the future.

“The problem is, once you’ve got a legal opinion that says such a technique is O.K., what happens when one of our people is captured and they do it to him? How do we protest then?” he asked.

Last edited by toxic; 10-04-2007 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:30 AM
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“The problem is, once you’ve got a legal opinion that says such a technique is O.K., what happens when one of our people is captured and they do it to him? How do we protest then?” he asked.
It doesent matter. Our enemys will always tourture us no matter how we treat our prisioners. However I would like to hear what they consider torture! Thus far no one has proven that we have tortured anyone with the exception of a few unprofessional soldiers. LOL I love the New York Times! How is there stock doing again? NYSE, New York Stock Exchange > Listed Securities > Listed Company Directory
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:34 AM
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Toxic,

Good post...this is scary stuff and just another example of where the Bush Administration acts as if they are above the law. They certainly aren't the first to act this way using the current security situation as justification, e.g., FDR and the Japanese Americans, Clinton did some things, etc. But, they have certainly taken the whole torture/secrecy thing to a new extreme.
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:35 AM
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I think it's funny one might believe that these are "the harshest interrogation techniques ever used by the Central Intelligence Agency".
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:39 AM
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I think it's funny one might believe that these are "the harshest interrogation techniques ever used by the Central Intelligence Agency".
Probably not, EF...prior to the Nixon Administration the CIA had quite a bit of autonomy. However, since the era of Congressional oversight, I wouldn't be surprised that they are....and the current administration had done more than others to thumb its nose at the idea of Congressional oversight. BTW, if these aren't "the harshest interrogation techniques ever used by the Central Intelligence Agency", does it make all this acceptable?
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Smitty0311 View Post
It doesent matter. Our enemys will always tourture us no matter how we treat our prisioners. However I would like to hear what they consider torture! Thus far no one has proven that we have tortured anyone with the exception of a few unprofessional soldiers. LOL I love the New York Times! How is there stock doing again? NYSE, New York Stock Exchange > Listed Securities > Listed Company Directory
What doe we know?

1) Bush and Gonzales have endorsed torture.
2) Justice Dept Attorneys mutinied against the unlawful actions.
3) The CIA has trained in Soviet and Saudi methods.
4) We have secret prisons around the world.
5) Inmates of those prisons are being held incommunicato.

That is a pretty strong circumstantial case for a major investigation. The mere authorization should justify a War Crimes indicment against Bush and his Running Dogs.

BTW,
1) Petraeus quoted the Washington Post, New York Times and New Yorker in his CounterInsurgency manual.
2) If any American troops are tortured, I hope that fate befalls only those as thoughtless as you.
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:43 AM
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Probably not, EF...prior to the Nixon Administration the CIA had quite a bit of autonomy. However, since the era of Congressional oversight, I wouldn't be surprised that they are....and the current administration had done more than others to thumb its nose at the idea of Congressional oversight. BTW, if these aren't "the harshest interrogation techniques ever used by the Central Intelligence Agency", does it make all this acceptable?
I had hoped you would pose that question rather than assume I accepted. No, I don't think everything we are doing is ethical. That said, 9/11 forced change in many areas and this is but one.
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:53 AM
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[quote=toxic;230025] What doe we know?

Quote:
Originally Posted by toxic View Post
1) Bush and Gonzales have endorsed torture.
Prove it
Quote:
Originally Posted by toxic View Post
2) Justice Dept Attorneys mutinied against the unlawful actions.
Politics!
Quote:
Originally Posted by toxic View Post
3) The CIA has trained in Soviet and Saudi methods.
I wouldent put it by em but prove it to me!
Quote:
Originally Posted by toxic View Post
4) We have secret prisons around the world.
ssssssshhhhhhhhh!!!! dont tell anyone!
Quote:
Originally Posted by toxic View Post
5) Inmates of those prisons are being held incommunicato.
As well they should!

Quote:
Originally Posted by toxic View Post
That is a pretty strong circumstantial case for a major investigation. The mere authorization should justify a War Crimes indicment against Bush and his Running Dogs.

BTW,
1) Petraeus quoted the Washington Post, New York Times and New Yorker in his CounterInsurgency manual.
2) If any American troops are tortured, I hope that fate befalls only those as thoughtless as you.
I dont beleve there is any evedence that will convict anyone in the Bush administration for war crimes.
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by StormanNorman View Post
Probably not, EF...prior to the Nixon Administration the CIA had quite a bit of autonomy. However, since the era of Congressional oversight, I wouldn't be surprised that they are....and the current administration had done more than others to thumb its nose at the idea of Congressional oversight. BTW, if these aren't "the harshest interrogation techniques ever used by the Central Intelligence Agency", does it make all this acceptable?
Hey, it might just be me, but I would prefer many other things to:

1) Being thrown into a freezer naked.
2) Drowning (only simulated drowning if you survive?).
3) Extremely loud sounds through headphones for days.
4) Continuously bitch slapped and kept awake for days.

I'd prefer they just cut off a few fingers instead.

Anyway, the real down side to torture is that both sides know at the start that they must take every torturee to the maximum conditions to even decide that they didn't know anything to begin with.
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Old 10-04-2007, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by toxic View Post
Hey, it might just be me, but I would prefer many other things to:

1) Being thrown into a freezer naked.
2) Drowning (only simulated drowning if you survive?).
3) Extremely loud sounds through headphones for days.
4) Continuously bitch slapped and kept awake for days.

I'd prefer they just cut off a few fingers instead.

Anyway, the real down side to torture is that both sides know at the start that they must take every torturee to the maximum conditions to even decide that they didn't know anything to begin with.
Yep, and to me, using these torture techniques makes us much more like the current enemy than we care to admit.
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