Do you know him ?

smart makes a comeback · #1 (**permalink**) 06-30-2008, 11:02 PM

Forget the Movie...it was bullshit from start to finish

It had people as adults and dying before they would have been born, and people alive 10 years after they were dead, with fictional characters that made no historical sense

If you need to consult Wikipedia...move on

William Poole

Do you know him ?

Discuss

nathanbforrest45 · #2 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smart makes a comeback

Forget the Movie...it was bullshit from start to finish

It had people as adults and dying before they would have been born, and people alive 10 years after they were dead, with fictional characters that made no historical sense

If you need to consult Wikipedia...move on

William Poole

Do you know him ?

Discuss

Are you speaking of the movie "The Gangs of New York"? If so, you should be aware it was only a movie and I don't think it was meant to be taught even in government schools as fact.

Movies are movies dear. Most of them are not very reliable sources of history

TakuanSoho · #3 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smart makes a comeback

Forget the Movie...it was bullshit from start to finish

It had people as adults and dying before they would have been born, and people alive 10 years after they were dead, with fictional characters that made no historical sense

If you need to consult Wikipedia...move on

William Poole

Do you know him ?

Discuss

I take it you are now in a class or reading a book on the history of New York. This is the third specific New York based question you have asked.

smart makes a comeback · #4 (**permalink**) 07-01-2008, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TakuanSoho

I take it you are now in a class or reading a book on the history of New York. This is the third specific New York based question you have asked.

Took the “classes” a long time ago silly man. If you mean the battle or Oriskany in terms of New York questions, it is just a piece of relatively obscure history that fascinates me, and one I chose to write my thesis on. I grew up in NY, but not sure what that has to do with anything
Not sure which other specific NY question you are referring to

Not even sure the William Poole question is a specific "New York" question either….unless you want to discuss him in terms really bad movies that butcher (no pun intended) history

Where I was hoping this discussion would go, (as opposed you doubting my background and knowledge) was in the direction of the comparison between the "no nothings" and the modern day immigration questions, and the comparisons between mid 19th century urban violence and racism, and that which is seen today. I might have the bar a tad too high....ya never know

take a shot at it...I’m all ears

nathanbforrest45 · #5 (**permalink**) 07-02-2008, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smart makes a comeback

Took the “classes” a long time ago silly man. If you mean the battle or Oriskany in terms of New York questions, it is just a piece of relatively obscure history that fascinates me, and one I chose to write my thesis on. I grew up in NY, but not sure what that has to do with anything
Not sure which other specific NY question you are referring to

Not even sure the William Poole question is a specific "New York" question either….unless you want to discuss him in terms really bad movies that butcher (no pun intended) history

Where I was hoping this discussion would go, (as opposed you doubting my background and knowledge) was in the direction of the comparison between the "no nothings" and the modern day immigration questions, and the comparisons between mid 19th century urban violence and racism, and that which is seen today. I might have the bar a tad too high....ya never know

take a shot at it...I’m all ears

You make the issue too obscure. Even though its a very weak one we cannot read your mind and understand what you mean.

smart makes a comeback · #6 (**permalink**) 07-02-2008, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nathanbforrest45

You make the issue too obscure. Even though its a very weak one we cannot read your mind and understand what you mean.

It would help to have a background on the subject, which clearly you do not

Poole, among other things, was a prominent member of an anti immigration, anti Irish, anti Catholic political group called the "know nothing" party. That is not a comment on their intellect, that was what they called themselves

Now...if I have to spell out my reference regarding the comparison to the climate of the immigration issues of today, then as I feared, I did indeed set the bar too high

If you look at the rhetoric used by the anti immigrants of the mid 19th century, you will find that the similarities with the rhetoric used by those deeply concerned about the future of America because of the Latin American influx, are striking

The other interesting thing to note is the proclivity in the mid 1800s, of urban White Anglo Saxon Protestants like Poole in a lifestyle that is associated with the impoverished urban minorities of today.
Is it possible that this lifestyle is in fact a “right of passage” in America, since it seems nearly every ethnic group has had it’s turn in this lifestyle?

Just some food for thought

TakuanSoho · #7 (**permalink**) 07-02-2008, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smart makes a comeback

Where I was hoping this discussion would go, (as opposed you doubting my background and knowledge) was in the direction of the comparison between the "no nothings" and the modern day immigration questions, and the comparisons between mid 19th century urban violence and racism, and that which is seen today. I might have the bar a tad too high....ya never know

take a shot at it...I’m all ears

Not doubting your knowledge, was thinking more along the lines of TOMA (top of mind awareness). You seemed focus on New York, so I thought something was triggering the theme.

I would not put too much stock in comparison. While there are some people today who would be the modern version of the "know nothing party", for the most part people feel what they feel for entirely different reasons. For instance, many people favor immigration, but do not favor illegal immigration. That is not an issue from the mid 19th century.

smart makes a comeback · #8 (**permalink**) 07-02-2008, 04:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TakuanSoho

Not doubting your knowledge, was thinking more along the lines of TOMA (top of mind awareness). You seemed focus on New York, so I thought something was triggering the theme.

I would not put too much stock in comparison. While there are some people today who would be the modern version of the "know nothing party", for the most part people feel what they feel for entirely different reasons. For instance, many people favor immigration, but do not favor illegal immigration. That is not an issue from the mid 19th century.

mmmmmmm....not so sure

Personally, I have serious doubts about the claim by some that the reason they oppose immigration reform is because of a deep concern that law to be followed. Call me jaded, but I suspect it has more to do with the undocumented immigrants themselves, as opposed to illegal immigration

Take that away, and the syntax of the argument then and now are almost identical

The top of the mind awareness actually came for Monk Eastman being mentioned some of Damon Runion's memoirs I just finished reading, and a conversation which followed with the friend who turned me on to the pamphlet

Poole himself was a dubious and slightly obsessed, but interesting guy, actually far more interesting then the sociopath serial killer Scorsese subjected the world to in his three hour intellectually insulting assault on history.

The only thing they got right was his fear and dislike for not only Irish Catholics, but all non white non protestant immigrants, and his love hate on again off again relationship with Tammany Hall. He may or may not have ever actually associated with Tweed personally. We know he never met Eastman, (much less killed him) since he died 18 years before he was born

TakuanSoho · #9 (**permalink**) 07-02-2008, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smart makes a comeback

mmmmmmm....not so sure

Persoannly, I have serious doubts about the claim by some that the reason they oppose immigration reform is becuse of a deep concern that law to be followed. Call me jaded, but I suspect it has more to do with the undocumented imigrants themselves, as opposed to illegal immigration

Take that away, and the syntax of the arguement then and now are almost identical

The top of the mind awareness actually came for Monk Eastman being mentioned some of Damon Runion's memoirs I just finished reading, and a conversation which followed with the friend who turned me on to the pamphlet

Poole himself was a dubious but interesting guy, actually far more interesting then the sociopath serial killer Scorsese subjected the world to in his three hour intellectually insulting assault on history.

The only thing they got right was his fear and dislike for not only Irish Catholics, but all non white non protestant immigrants, and his love hate on again off again relationship with Tammany Hall. He may or may not have ever actually associated with Tweed personally. We know he never met Eastman, (much less killed him) since he died 18 years before he was born

Disagree. I oppose the immigration reform act because it was a slap at legality and it gave up everything while fixing nothing. I further think an immigration policy should be designed to encourage the best and brightest to come here. I don't care if these best are black, asian, hispanic, white, indian, or whatever. I do care about a massive influx of immigrants from a neighboring country because if you understand anything about history, these types of immigrants tend not to integrate, but instead eventually want to reunite with their home country.

You see a comparison because you feel otherwise. But the issues are far different because the times are greatly different.

I do agree that Poole and that period of New York is terribly interesting, however I never get upset when a movie fails to capture that. I don't get my history from movies or history channel documentaries (I have heard that they have gotten better, but the first ones I saw were horrible).

nathanbforrest45 · #10 (**permalink**) 07-02-2008, 04:57 PM

Do you think the attitude against illegal aliens is a result of racism or do you believe it to be more economic in nature?