IHNR vs. DOM1 "Was this Country Founded as a Christian Nation"

nathanbforrest45 · #**311** (**permalink**) 04-14-2008, 01:34 PM

By the way, Dom, I have been a Catholic for 63 years and I don't ever remember the Pope being called Pontifex Maximus. So, so matter what, I don't understand where she got that from. She may be right, there is a cultist website that makes reference to the Pope and Pontifex Maximus but I have never heard him called anything other than Vicar of Christ, The Pope, The Bishop Of Rome and the Holy Father.

wvpeach · #**312** (**permalink**) 04-14-2008, 01:34 PM

Wrong again Bluedog.

The disciples of Christ spent their entire week going from house to house breaking bread with people and telling the good news of the gospel of Christ. Breaking bread being a common term for eating a meal together.

Not the Lords supper or communion.

I often say to people come over we will break some bread and maybe I will throw in some meat while I am at it. LOL

That does not mean the sabbath day was changed to the first day of the week. It does show how people who like to say it has been will grasp at straws and tell any old lie to try to keep their lie going.

In fact we see that only the people who keep the commandments of God are called the people of God.

REV 22 :14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

And keeping the sabbath holy along with the holy feast days are God's commandments to all generations of men that will ever walk this earth. In fact the bible tells us that we will be keeping the sabbath and holy feast days on the new earth we will be given one day.

Matthew 5:17-19
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
I cannot speak any clearer! The words of Christ above said it perfectly clear the commandments of God are in effect and anybody who teaches people to break them is least in the kingdom of heaven.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. ..................................This is prophesy and how do we know its prophesy ????? Because there has never been a time when all flesh came to worship god together. So its a event that is yet to happen. And if you read on it talks about a time when all wars have ended and when a child shall lead a lion around as a pet, making it clear this is a time that has yet to happen.

And where does it say this event will happen? It says in the new heavens and on the New earth is where this event will happen. And what does it say will happen on the new earth? ............................That all flesh,( meaning all people) will come to worship before God on the sabbath which of course is the seventh day, and from new moon till new moon, which of course are the holy feast days that God said were for all generations of men that ever lived.

So if God were not serious about his commanded sabbath he wouldn't be telling us that we will be celebrating the sabbath even when all wars are done away with. When death is banished and none die anymore. When children play with lions as pets, God says we will be coming before him during the sabbath and during the new moon holy days God set down for all generation way back in the beginning of the bible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluedog

It could not be because "SUNDAY" is the first day of the week, now could it, and this is when the followers of Christ met to break break in memory of the day that Christ was resurrected?

In answering this point, we need to note that Constantine reigned from 306 to 337 AD. You claim that the day of worship changed by a decree of Constantine; hence, we should find that Christians worshiped on the Sabbath (Saturday) prior to Constantine and Sunday after Constantine. However, as always, you are guilty of ignoring HISTORICAL FACTS.

As noted, form the Scriptures we know that the early disciples worshiped on the first day of the week, "Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together (a meeting) to break bread (communion), Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them and continued his message until midnight (proving this was a speaking meeting of the disciples and not a dinner)" -- Acts 20:7
"On the first day of the week let each one of you lay something aside, storing up as thee may prosper; that there be no collections when I come." -- l Cor. 16:2. However, these are not the only statements made by early Christians. There is a large body of writings done by early Christians (not a part of the scriptures). While these writings are not inspired, they do give us insight into the beliefs and practices of early Christians.

DIDACHE -- between 80 and 140 AD
"But every Lord's Day, gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, so that you sacrifice may be pure."

IGNATIUS -- 107 AD
"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again in Him...let us therefore no longer keep the Sabbath day after the Jewish manner, and rejoice in the days of idleness; for "he that does not work, let him not eat.......let every friend of Christ keep the Lord's Day as a festival, the resurrection day, THE QUEEN AND CHIEF OF ALL THE DAYS OF THE WEEK."

ARISTIDES -- 125 AD
"However, {the Jews} to have erred form true knowledge. In their imagination, they think that it is God which they serve. Actually, by their type of worship, they render their service to the angels and not to God. For example, they do so when they celebrate Sabbaths."

JUSTIN MATYR -- 160 AD
"Is there any matter my {Jewish} friends, in which Christians are blamed, than this; that we do not live after the Law...and do not observe Sabbaths, as you do?"

EUSEBIUS --180 AD
"This custom of not bending the knee on Sunday is a symbol of the resurrection, through which we have been set free by the grace of Christ."

Tertullian -- 197, and Anatolius -- 270 AD, both make similar statements concerning Sunday worship

VICTORINUS -- 280 AD

"And let this become a rigorous fast, lest we should appear to observe any Sabbath with the Jews. For concerning {their Sabbath}, Christ himself, the Lord of the Sabbath, says by His prophets that "His soul hates." In His body, He abolished this Sabbath."

The evidence is historically solid that early Christians, long before Constantine, worshiped on the first day of the week and not on the Sabbath day. Constantine could not have instituted a new practice since the practice predates him.

However, I was curious what Constantine declared that would cause people like yourself to think that he changed the day of worship. What I found was that on March 7, 321 AD Constantine issued this decree; "On the venerable Day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits." This decree, doesn't mention anything in regards to activities of the church. Essentially it is the first "blue Sunday" law. The only reason a Sabbatarian or an atheist would think this dealt with worship is because the Jewish Sabbath day was celebrated by resting. Christians do not worship by resting because our rest comes later. "There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience." -- Hebrews 4:9-11. In addition, Constantine's decree only applied to city dwellers; farmers were specifically exempted from the law, thus It could not reference any Christian worship.

bluedog · #**313** (**permalink**) 04-14-2008, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TakuanSoho

That everyone and anyone can claim spiritual hegemony?

Just the problem the Nicene council tried to do away with ;-)

The "only" place that spiritual hegemony can be enforced is found in the scriptures, and the truth thereof. As one must accept them in the authority of doctrine which they claim to hold, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is PROFITABLE for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for INSTRUCTION in RIGHTEOUSNESS. That the man of God, may be PERFECT, THOROUGHLY FURNISHED UNTO "ALL" GOOD WORKS." -- 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

Thus if one can find Doctrine, Proof, and Instruction, and this information has the capacity make Him/Her PERFECTLY furnished in performing ALL good works.....to what other source of authority are we to turn, after all, God is claiming to have presented us with this book of righteous teachings to inform us of His will, and what He would have us do?

We use this authority to weed out the Goats from the Sheep in teachings they are presenting. If their teachings do not conform to the authorized teachings found in the scriptures or directly contradict these teachings, indeed they are being directed from some other Spirit other than the One that takes credit for the original. This indeed is the "Gift" of the Holy Spirit that is promised to all that accept Jesus as the Messiah and are baptized in His name, THE TRUTH OF OUR DOCTRINE, which He, the Holy Spirit, was instructed to deliver. -- Acts 2:38.

If one reads these words of God, which are truth -- John 17:17. And one comprehends these truths and these truths rest within our Spirit and interacts with our mental processes, that directs us in making judgments of right and wrong, of good and evil...then indeed just what Spirit rests within US, if it is not the Holy Spirit of Truth? Thus, this same Truth that was delivered in the first century is still IN FACT being continually delivered TODAY....if not, why not? BD

wvpeach · #**314** (**permalink**) 04-14-2008, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nathanbforrest45

By the way, Dom, I have been a Catholic for 63 years and I don't ever remember the Pope being called Pontifex Maximus. So, so matter what, I don't understand where she got that from. She may be right, there is a cultist website that makes reference to the Pope and Pontifex Maximus but I have never heard him called anything other than Vicar of Christ, The Pope, The Bishop Of Rome and the Holy Father.

Nathan you and dom have to be two of the most uneducated people about Catholicism I have ever seen. Perhaps you two should start reading the Catholic Advent where the pope is constantly referred to as the Pontifex Maximus, Servus servorum Dei.

Here Nathan I will give you a link to the Catholic Advent to prove it to you. Perhaps Nathan you should start reading up on the religion you claim to follow.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Pope

TITLES
Pope
The most noteworthy of the titles are Papa, Summus Pontifex, Pontifex Maximus, Servus servorum Dei. The title pope (papa) was, as has been stated, at one time employed with far more latitude. In the East it has always been used to designate simple priests. In the Western Church, however, it seems from the beginning to have been restricted to bishops (Tertullian, "De Pud." 13). It was apparently in the fourth century that it began to become a distinctive title of the Roman Pontiff. Pope Siricius (d. 398) seems so to use it (Ep. vi in P. L., XIII, 1164), and Ennodius of Pavia (d. 473) employs it still more clearly in this sense in a letter to Pope Symmachus (P. L., LXIII, 69). Yet as late as the seventh century St. Gall (d. 640) addresses Desiderius of Cahors as papa (P. L., LXXXVII, 265). Gregory VII finally prescribed that it should be confined to the successors of Peter.

Pontiff
The terms Pontifex Maximus, Summus Pontifex, were doubtless originally employed with reference to the Jewish high-priest, whose place the Christian bishops were regarded as holding each in his own diocese (I Clement 40). As regards the title Pontifex Maximus, especially in its application to the pope, there was further a reminiscence of the dignity attached to that title in pagan Rome. Tertullian, as has already been said, uses the phrase of Pope Callistus. Though his words are ironical, they probably indicate that Catholics already applied it to the pope. But here too the terms were once less narrowly restricted in their use. Pontifex summus was used of the bishop of some notable see in relation to those of less importance. Hilary of Arles (d. 449) is so styled by Eucherius of Lyons (P. L., L, 773), and Lanfranc is termed "primas et pontifex summus" by his biographer, Milo Crispin (P. L., CL, 10). Pope Nicholas I is termed "summus pontifex et universalis papa" by his legate Arsenius (Hardouin "Conc.", V, 280), and subsequent examples are common. After the eleventh century it appears to be only used of the popes.

Geez Nathan even president Bush and secular journalists knows the popes official title is Pontifex Maximus. How is it Nathan that you a catholic don't know this?

"Bush Greets Pontifex Maximus, â€œTexas Styleâ€" by Scott Horton (Harper's Magazine)

Bush Greets Pontifex Maximus, “Texas Style”

The latest leg of Bush’s European tour includes a visit to the Vatican and an audience with Pope Benedict XVI. Apparently, Bush did not attempt to deliver a massage, but his conduct did elicit audible gasps from the crowd:

US President George W Bush drew gasps at the Vatican on Saturday by referring to Pope Benedict XVI as “sir” instead of the expected “His Holiness”, pool reporters said. They could clearly hear the US leader say “Yes, sir” when the pope asked him if he was going to meet with officials of the lay Catholic Sant’Egidio community at the US embassy later during his visit. A handful of pool reporters were on hand as Benedict greeted Bush at the door of his private library ahead of a private audience of about half an hour.

On his way to see the 80-year-old pontiff, the US leader apparently recognised someone he knew, and could be heard greeting the person with a casual “How ya doin’?” The pool reporters also noted Bush’s relaxed posture, crossing his legs “Texan style” while facing the pope across his desk in the private study of the apostolic palace.

Bush may not have know he was in the presence of the Pontifex Maximus. LOL but all good Catholics sure knew it.

Duties
The main duty of the Pontifices was to maintain 'pax deorum' or 'peace of the gods'................................That is right the term originated for men who kept peace between the gods, that is gods with a plural S for any that might miss that fact.

bluedog · #**315** (**permalink**) 04-14-2008, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wvpeach

Wrong again Bluedog.

The disciples of Christ spent their entire week going from house to house breaking bread with people and telling the good news of the gospel of Christ. Breaking bread being a common term for eating a meal together.

Not the Lords supper or communion.

I often say to people come over we will break some bread and maybe I will throw in some meat while I am at it. LOL

That does not mean the sabbath day was changed to the first day of the week. It does show how people who like to say it has been will grasp at straws and tell any old lie to try to keep their lie going.

In fact we see that only the people who keep the commandments of God are called the people of God.

REV 22 :14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

And keeping the sabbath holy along with the holy feast days are God's commandments to all generations of men that will ever walk this earth. In fact the bible tells us that we will be keeping the sabbath and holy feast days on the new earth we will be given one day.

Matthew 5:17-19
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
I cannot speak any clearer! The words of Christ above said it perfectly clear the commandments of God are in effect and anybody who teaches people to break them is least in the kingdom of heaven.

Isaiah 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. ..................................This is prophesy and how do we know its prophesy ????? Because there has never been a time when all flesh came to worship god together. So its a event that is yet to happen. And if you read on it talks about a time when all wars have ended and when a child shall lead a lion around as a pet, making it clear this is a time that has yet to happen.

And where does it say this event will happen? It says in the new heavens and on the New earth is where this event will happen. And what does it say will happen on the new earth? ............................That all flesh,( meaning all people) will come to worship before God on the sabbath which of course is the seventh day, and from new moon till new moon, which of course are the holy feast days that God said were for all generations of men that ever lived.

So if God were not serious about his commanded sabbath he wouldn't be telling us that we will be celebrating the sabbath even when all wars are done away with. When death is banished and none die anymore. When children play with lions as pets, God says we will be coming before him during the sabbath and during the new moon holy days God set down for all generation way back in the beginning of the bible.

As I said before...."you'r funny". Same old circular arguments. Stop being lost in this sea of secular doctrine, why do you continue to place yourself into a box? Accept the truth as it was delivered, and start serving God and stop being manipulated by "slick" talking preachers that want nothing from you except your money and help in spreading their lies. The truth is just an instant away, open up the book and "comprehend" and stop parroting the ideology of mere mortal men. That's all that "I" can do, present you with the truth, and its up to you as an agent of "freewill" that is capable of directing your own fate to accept or reject such. Just how more time do we have left? BD

wvpeach · #**316** (**permalink**) 04-14-2008, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 36shadow

So do you drink do you think drinking alchohol is ok?

Sure the bible says drinking alcohol to excess is a bad thing.

It doesn't say drinking in moderation is a problem.

wvpeach · #**317** (**permalink**) 04-14-2008, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nathanbforrest45

Because I work for a living and my entire life is not centered on making you look like a total lunatic.

There you have it. Nathan is another one of those people who is at working stealing time from his bosses while posting all day on AWE.

TakuanSoho · #**318** (**permalink**) 04-14-2008, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nathanbforrest45

Pontifex Maximus means highest of the high priest. How does that relate to being pagan? The Original leadership of the Catholic Church was made up of various Bishops, of which the Bishop of Rome was considered "First Among Equals" and I guess you could say Pontifex Maximus. The Pope is also called the Vicar of Christ and would be the highest of the high priest. Again, I fail to see how this could be considered pagan by any means. Dom1, I think she is reaching for anything in the hopes others will begin to believe her. She is like all Cult Inspired theologians, wrapped up in her own little world and I am not sure we are doing the right thing by giving her a forum. I would just ignore her, no matter how irreverant or blasphemous she becomes

It was originally a pagan (Roman) term. As Rome and Constantinople fought for supremecy of the Church (which eventually led to the schism in the 12th century (or so), the title became associated with the Bishop of Rom (the Pope), but it doesn't appear to have been an official title until the middle ages.

Pontifex Maximus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

wvpeach · #**319** (**permalink**) 04-14-2008, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluedog

Do you not remember your own lies? You said that Christ was quoted as declaring that man "would" take away from the truth of these words, A warning not to, certainly is not a declaration declaring that they have been "allowed" to do so, as you said out right. "you'r funny". I used the exact same words in "rebuking" your lies, now are you trying to suggest that you only said there was a warning from the Christ? BD

You seem to have a problem with reality bluedog. If Christ warned men would be punished for adding to or taking away from the bible BD that clearly means they can do that.

What kind of lie is your mind enveloped by BD that you would deny this fact?

Again Show me one place in scripture that it says God is protecting in anyway the scriptures from tampering by men bluedog?

I'll wait.

TakuanSoho · #**320** (**permalink**) 04-14-2008, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluedog

The "only" place that spiritual hegemony can be enforced is found in the scriptures, and the truth thereof. As one must accept them in the authority of doctrine which they claim to hold, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is PROFITABLE for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for INSTRUCTION in RIGHTEOUSNESS. That the man of God, may be PERFECT, THOROUGHLY FURNISHED UNTO "ALL" GOOD WORKS." -- 2 Timothy 3:16-17.

So you are pro-Nicene. That was what the council was all about.