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Old 05-27-2008, 07:40 PM
patriot2342001's Avatar
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Default Second Amendment And Slavery

I read this and found it interesting, thoughts?


In his recent U.C. Davis Law Review article "The Hidden History of
the Second Amendment," Roger Williams University School of Law
Professor Carl T. Bogus offers a thesis that could forever change the
way Americans view the Second Amendment: James Madison wrote the
Second Amendment to assure the southern states that Congress would
not undermine the slave system by disarming the militia, which were
then the principal instruments of slave control throughout the South.

The story begins in Richmond, Virginia in the summer of 1788. Since
it had been proposed by the convention in Philadelphia two years
earlier, the Constitution of the United States had been the focus of
an intense struggle. By its own terms, the Constitution required
ratification by at least nine states; if that were not achieved the
United States would not come into being. The Federalists were working
hard for ratification, but anti-Federalists were opposing them with
equal vigor. Although eight states had ratified the Constitution,
most of the remaining states seemed to be leaning the other way, and
it was uncertain whether a ninth state would be found. The last and
best hope was Virginia, where the Federalists and anti-Federalists
were about equally divided.

It was with high drama, therefore, that the Virginia ratifying
convention convened in Richmond in June 1788. Madison led the forces
for ratification, and as its principal author, no one understood the
Constitution better. Yet the opposition was equally formidable. The
anti-Federalists were led by George Mason, the most intellectual of
the anti-Federalists, and Patrick Henry, who was considered the
greatest orator of the day.

Mason and Henry made many arguments against ratification, but one of
the strategies they devised was particularly shrewd. Virginia was
nearly half black, and the white population lived in constant fear of
slave insurrection. The main instrument of control was the militia.
So critical was the militia for slave control that, in the main, the
southern states refused to commit their militia to the war against
the British. The Constitution, however, would transfer the lion's
share of the power over the militia to Congress. Slavery was becoming
increasingly obnoxious to the North, and southern delegates to the
Philadelphia convention demanded and got an agreement, somewhat
cryptically written into the Constitution, that deprived the federal
government of authority to abolish slavery. Mason and Henry raised
the specter of Congress using its authority over the militia to do
indirectly what it could not do directly. They suggested that
Congress might refuse to call forth the militia to suppress an
insurrection, send southern militia to New Hampshire, or—and on this
they harped repeatedly—disarm the militia. For Virginia and the
South, these were chilling prospects.

The Federalists prevailed, but just barely. Although Virginia
ratified the Constitution, Madison limped out of the Richmond
Convention. Half of Virginia was still anti-Federalist, and the anti-
Federalists were determined to end Madison's political career. Losing
a bid to the United States Senate, Madison was reduced to running for
a House seat. Patrick Henry had Madison's congressional district
gerrymandered to include as many anti-Federalist areas as possible,
then recruited a rising young star—James Monroe—to run for the seat.

Monroe campaigned as a champion for a bill of rights. Madison had
previously been opposed to a bill of rights, but it was not a popular
view. Cognitive dissonance set in, and Madison persuaded himself that
he had only been opposed to a bill of rights prior to ratification.
He promised the electorate he would support adding a bill of rights
to the Constitution.

Madison won the election, and he went to Congress politically
committed to supporting a bill of rights. When he drafted that
document, he included a provision that with minor modifications
became what is now the Second Amendment: "A well regulated Militia,
being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the
people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

In his 99-page article, Professor Bogus argues that the evidence—
including an analysis of Madison's original language, and an
understanding of how he and other founders drew on England's
Declaration of Rights—strongly suggests that Madison wrote this
provision for the specific purpose of assuring his constituency that
Congress could not use its newly acquired power to deprive the states
of an armed militia. Madison's concern, Professor Bogus argues, was
not hunting, self-defense, national defense, or resistance to
governmental tyranny—but slave control.

The "hidden history" of the Second Amendment is important for two
reasons. First, it supports the view that the amendment does not
grant individuals a right to keep and bear arms for their own
purposes; rather it only protects the right to bear arms within the
militia, as defined within the main body of the Constitution, under
the joint control of the federal and state governments. At the time,
the southern states extensively regulated their militias and
prescribed their slave control responsibilities. Second, the hidden
history is important because it fundamentally changes how we think
about the right to keep and bear arms. The Second Amendment takes on
an entirely different complexion when instead of being symbolized by
a musket in the hands of the minutemen, it is associated with a
musket in the hands of the slave holder.



VPC - Second Amendment History
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 05-28-2008, 04:33 AM
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Mr Bogus lives up to his name in every regard and this article is not "recent" regardles what your cut and paste from the VPC states.

Along with Saul Cornell, Bogus is a member of the rapidly declining fraternity of "historians" who still hold the dark lantern of the "state's right" or "collective right" aloft, stumbling around searching for a path that doesn't exist.

The "state's right" interpretation is dead; the slavery angle is just one more misapplication of perverted history to serve a political agenda.

And a question directly to you "patriot;" why do you start threads on the 2nd and its interpretation and meaning if you are unwilling to engage in a meaningful discussion on it? There is a reply from me to you addressing your mistaken assumption on the meaning of "well regulated" in your "Second Amendment Rocks" thread that you are ignoring.

It's common courtesy to address replies to you in threads you start before starting new threads.
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Old 05-28-2008, 08:49 AM
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States rights was largely about protecting slavery. That's just a fact. This argument makes a lot of sense, no reason to get so emotional about it.
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Old 05-28-2008, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patriot2342001 View Post
States rights was largely about protecting slavery. That's just a fact.
What about in the six states that had prohibited slavery well before the Constitution was ratified? How do they fit into your version of history?

Do you understand the concept of federalism?

Do you have any comprehension of the impetus for the 9th and 10th Amendments?

Quote:
Originally Posted by patriot2342001 View Post
This argument makes a lot of sense,
No, not really.

Bogus can conjure up some far-fetched theories but this one takes the cake. This paper is 10 years old and the theories posited have enjoyed no traction in historical or legal circles. In fact you would be hard pressed to find any of the theories repeated anywhere, . . . even by Bogus himself.

I must ask, have you even read the paper or just VPC's commentary on it? Didn't you "find it interesting" that Bogus works for Brady and the VPC yet there is no link to this paper on the page that you linked to touting it?

Why????

This "Hidden History," like many other "scholarly" papers supporting the "collective right" theory of the late '90's - early 2000's were written by professors under generous grants from the Joyce Foundation. Each of them cite the others as support like an incestuous family and all are also overly self-referential to the point of it being a joke. Bogus' 7 citations in Hidden History to the disgraced "historian" Bellesiles now stand as mute testimony of the level of scholarship in this hack's papers.

In 2000, the Joyce Foundation paid Bogus an honorarium to organize and edit a "Second Amendment Symposium" under the respected banner of the Chicago-Kent Law Review where historians and scholars were to discuss the 2nd Amendment . . . The program was widely criticized because Bogus only invited a one sided panel. He unashamedly admitted this, arguing that the lack of balance was intentional and meant to counter the overwhelming dominance of the individual rights position. His intention was to work out alternative paradigms with the scholars who were dissenters from the individual rights position and to provide fresh thinking on the 2nd Amendment.

To me it seems Bogus' "alternative paradigms" are little more than throwing buckets of crap on the wall and seeing what sticks . . . Well patriot, this slavery theory slid right down to the floor . . .

If you would like to read something from Bogus that is truly "recent" Bogus wrote the amicus brief in support of DC in Heller commonly referred to as "The History Professors" (305KB pdf) and nowhere is this slavery angle argued. He argues specifically about what they consider to be the primary issues regarding the 2nd Amendment's ratification and reason for being and protecting slavery ain't there.

If you are moved to read on this subject I highly recommend the amicus briefs filed with the Supreme Court in Heller, there are quite a few (47 for Heller, 20 for DC). These are after all the most important arguments on the 2nd Amendment . . . presented to the Court to sway the Court. These arguments are the "state of the art" position papers for both sides.

All are available from the the Respondent's legal representative, the law firm of Gura & Possessky. PLEADINGS

I guess if you find "alternative paradigms" to history interesting, Bogus is your guy. If however you value truth and real scholarship you will dismiss Bogus, as bogus.

Quote:
Originally Posted by patriot2342001 View Post
no reason to get so emotional about it.
What emotion? I don't make emotional arguments or appeals -- I deal in facts and logic. I welcome your arguments based in the same.
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Old 05-28-2008, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will E Orwontee View Post
And a question directly to you "patriot;" why do you start threads on the 2nd and its interpretation and meaning if you are unwilling to engage in a meaningful discussion on it?
I agree with this sentiment wholeheartedly. I am so tired of people posting other people's words (copyrighted, no less, which means they cannot be reproduced without the writer's permission) and then throwing it to us for discussion just because they found it "interesting."

If you read the posted article here, then you are not going to the site where the writer depends on "hits" and advertisers to make a living. If the hits aren't there, then the advertisers go elsewhere.

Please, people, post only the lede of the article and then provide the link to the original page, so that the writer can get paid for all that work. And include your take on the article and what you think the subject for debate is.
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Old 05-29-2008, 07:31 AM
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wow wow is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patriot2342001 View Post
I read this and found it interesting, thoughts?


In his recent U.C. Davis Law Review article "The Hidden History of
the Second Amendment," Roger Williams University School of Law
Professor Carl T. Bogus offers a thesis that could forever change the
way Americans view the Second Amendment: James Madison wrote the
Second Amendment to assure the southern states that Congress would
not undermine the slave system by disarming the militia, which were
then the principal instruments of slave control throughout the South.

The story begins in Richmond, Virginia in the summer of 1788. Since
it had been proposed by the convention in Philadelphia two years
earlier, the Constitution of the United States had been the focus of
an intense struggle. By its own terms, the Constitution required
ratification by at least nine states; if that were not achieved the
United States would not come into being. The Federalists were working
hard for ratification, but anti-Federalists were opposing them with
equal vigor. Although eight states had ratified the Constitution,
most of the remaining states seemed to be leaning the other way, and
it was uncertain whether a ninth state would be found. The last and
best hope was Virginia, where the Federalists and anti-Federalists
were about equally divided.

It was with high drama, therefore, that the Virginia ratifying
convention convened in Richmond in June 1788. Madison led the forces
for ratification, and as its principal author, no one understood the
Constitution better. Yet the opposition was equally formidable. The
anti-Federalists were led by George Mason, the most intellectual of
the anti-Federalists, and Patrick Henry, who was considered the
greatest orator of the day.

Mason and Henry made many arguments against ratification, but one of
the strategies they devised was particularly shrewd. Virginia was
nearly half black, and the white population lived in constant fear of
slave insurrection. The main instrument of control was the militia.
So critical was the militia for slave control that, in the main, the
southern states refused to commit their militia to the war against
the British. The Constitution, however, would transfer the lion's
share of the power over the militia to Congress. Slavery was becoming
increasingly obnoxious to the North, and southern delegates to the
Philadelphia convention demanded and got an agreement, somewhat
cryptically written into the Constitution, that deprived the federal
government of authority to abolish slavery. Mason and Henry raised
the specter of Congress using its authority over the militia to do
indirectly what it could not do directly. They suggested that
Congress might refuse to call forth the militia to suppress an
insurrection, send southern militia to New Hampshire, or—and on this
they harped repeatedly—disarm the militia. For Virginia and the
South, these were chilling prospects.

The Federalists prevailed, but just barely. Although Virginia
ratified the Constitution, Madison limped out of the Richmond
Convention. Half of Virginia was still anti-Federalist, and the anti-
Federalists were determined to end Madison's political career. Losing
a bid to the United States Senate, Madison was reduced to running for
a House seat. Patrick Henry had Madison's congressional district
gerrymandered to include as many anti-Federalist areas as possible,
then recruited a rising young star—James Monroe—to run for the seat.

Monroe campaigned as a champion for a bill of rights. Madison had
previously been opposed to a bill of rights, but it was not a popular
view. Cognitive dissonance set in, and Madison persuaded himself that
he had only been opposed to a bill of rights prior to ratification.
He promised the electorate he would support adding a bill of rights
to the Constitution.

Madison won the election, and he went to Congress politically
committed to supporting a bill of rights. When he drafted that
document, he included a provision that with minor modifications
became what is now the Second Amendment: "A well regulated Militia,
being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the
people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

In his 99-page article, Professor Bogus argues that the evidence—
including an analysis of Madison's original language, and an
understanding of how he and other founders drew on England's
Declaration of Rights—strongly suggests that Madison wrote this
provision for the specific purpose of assuring his constituency that
Congress could not use its newly acquired power to deprive the states
of an armed militia. Madison's concern, Professor Bogus argues, was
not hunting, self-defense, national defense, or resistance to
governmental tyranny—but slave control.

The "hidden history" of the Second Amendment is important for two
reasons. First, it supports the view that the amendment does not
grant individuals a right to keep and bear arms for their own
purposes; rather it only protects the right to bear arms within the
militia, as defined within the main body of the Constitution, under
the joint control of the federal and state governments. At the time,
the southern states extensively regulated their militias and
prescribed their slave control responsibilities. Second, the hidden
history is important because it fundamentally changes how we think
about the right to keep and bear arms. The Second Amendment takes on
an entirely different complexion when instead of being symbolized by
a musket in the hands of the minutemen, it is associated with a
musket in the hands of the slave holder.



VPC - Second Amendment History
Why do armed Americans living in the South intimidate you?
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  #7 (permalink)  
Old 05-29-2008, 08:17 AM
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Will, I think you are operating under a fog. Your argument that the writers of the 2 amendment never argued it was to control slaves is a pretty bad argument. Slavery isn't even mentioned in the Constitution but the document was written with the idea of bending over backwards to keep the slave holders happy. Really, it was a pro-slavery document all the way, yet it never mentions slavery directly. If a document was so pro-slavery--only an extremely ignorant person can deny this--yet tries to hide that fact, then it isn't so far fetched to think that an amendment added to that document inorder to get it ratified could also be for the purpose of protecting slavery. You claiming its "far fetched" to suggest this makes me wonder if you understand how deeply a part of the nations social, economic and political structure slavery was. I mean slavery was the cause of the greatest war this country has ever known. It would be no surprise at all that it was such an overiding concern--yet, an embarassing one-- that they didn't even have to come out and say it openly.

In fact the Virginia militia had been used for just such a purpose when Lord Dunmore called on the slaves to rise up. Surely southerns had not forgotten that and were fearful a federal government could try to impose its will on the slave states. Time and again we saw the south freaking out of slavery. Getting an amendment into the constitution that would guarantee their militia rights to enforce white supremecy is in line with their other requests for the constituion to ensure slavery's place in the nation.
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Old 05-29-2008, 08:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wow View Post
Why do armed Americans living in the South intimidate you?
Do you have a real question?
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Old 05-29-2008, 09:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patriot2342001 View Post
Do you have a real question?
Why did you post this article?
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Old 05-29-2008, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Will E Orwontee View Post
What about in the six states that had prohibited slavery well before the Constitution was ratified? How do they fit into your version of history?

Do you understand the concept of federalism?

Do you have any comprehension of the impetus for the 9th and 10th Amendments?



No, not really.

Bogus can conjure up some far-fetched theories but this one takes the cake. This paper is 10 years old and the theories posited have enjoyed no traction in historical or legal circles. In fact you would be hard pressed to find any of the theories repeated anywhere, . . . even by Bogus himself.

I must ask, have you even read the paper or just VPC's commentary on it? Didn't you "find it interesting" that Bogus works for Brady and the VPC yet there is no link to this paper on the page that you linked to touting it?

Why????

This "Hidden History," like many other "scholarly" papers supporting the "collective right" theory of the late '90's - early 2000's were written by professors under generous grants from the Joyce Foundation. Each of them cite the others as support like an incestuous family and all are also overly self-referential to the point of it being a joke. Bogus' 7 citations in Hidden History to the disgraced "historian" Bellesiles now stand as mute testimony of the level of scholarship in this hack's papers.

In 2000, the Joyce Foundation paid Bogus an honorarium to organize and edit a "Second Amendment Symposium" under the respected banner of the Chicago-Kent Law Review where historians and scholars were to discuss the 2nd Amendment . . . The program was widely criticized because Bogus only invited a one sided panel. He unashamedly admitted this, arguing that the lack of balance was intentional and meant to counter the overwhelming dominance of the individual rights position. His intention was to work out alternative paradigms with the scholars who were dissenters from the individual rights position and to provide fresh thinking on the 2nd Amendment.

To me it seems Bogus' "alternative paradigms" are little more than throwing buckets of crap on the wall and seeing what sticks . . . Well patriot, this slavery theory slid right down to the floor . . .

If you would like to read something from Bogus that is truly "recent" Bogus wrote the amicus brief in support of DC in Heller commonly referred to as "The History Professors" (305KB pdf) and nowhere is this slavery angle argued. He argues specifically about what they consider to be the primary issues regarding the 2nd Amendment's ratification and reason for being and protecting slavery ain't there.

If you are moved to read on this subject I highly recommend the amicus briefs filed with the Supreme Court in Heller, there are quite a few (47 for Heller, 20 for DC). These are after all the most important arguments on the 2nd Amendment . . . presented to the Court to sway the Court. These arguments are the "state of the art" position papers for both sides.

All are available from the the Respondent's legal representative, the law firm of Gura & Possessky. PLEADINGS

I guess if you find "alternative paradigms" to history interesting, Bogus is your guy. If however you value truth and real scholarship you will dismiss Bogus, as bogus.



What emotion? I don't make emotional arguments or appeals -- I deal in facts and logic. I welcome your arguments based in the same.
Wow, that has to be one of the best posts I have ever seen on line. Well stated and argued.

I did find Patriot's attack on others "emotionalism" interesting. This seems to be the new debating tactic among people who can't debate. Pale Rider was another who was trying to use the "I am being intellectual, you are being emotional defense" as if that explains anything.
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