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11-27-2007, 10:33 PM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Join Date: Jul 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Upton
It is you with the "comprehension problem". China, India, and other developing countries are not subject to the limitations of the Kyoto Protocol because they were not the main contributors to the greenhouse gas emissions during the industrialization period that is believed to be causing today's climate change.
You suggested that because China is not subject to those limitations, we shouldn't sign it. Now, you can argue that's not, literally, taking our lead from China, but it sure is using them as an excuse.
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You are totally wrong. China is a major contributor to greenhouse gases but since they have so many people they get a pass.
China now no. 1 in CO2 emissions; USA in second position - the Netherlands Environmental Assessment Agency (MNP)
Whether they are first or a close second not many doubt that China will surpass us soon in this department if they haven't already. It is ridiculous to say that they grew that much since Kyoto. Even if their co2 emission grew at 50% they would still have been in the top five if not higher. But they aren't hit with all those penalties because of their large population. India is the same way.
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11-27-2007, 10:34 PM
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Political Mastermind
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__________________
"If capitalism had never existed, any honest humanitarian should have been struggling to invent it. But when you see men struggling to evade its existence, to misrepresent its nature, and to destroy its last remnants - you may be sure that whatever their motives, love for man is not one of them." - Ayn Rand, Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal
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11-27-2007, 10:36 PM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coyote
That's what Al Gore said:
"We will not submit this [Kyoto Protocol] for ratification until there's meaningful participation by key developing nations."
- Al Gore, 1997
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Thanks, I didn't know that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Upton
Your quibbling over semantics, Clinton's signing, without ratification, means absolutely nothing. Bush could have submitted to a Republican Congress a recommendation for ratification anytime during his first six years. Like the good oil man and loyal Republican he is, he actively opposed the pact.
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You are saying it is a Republican thing but you have been given a quote by Al Gore and you dismiss Clinton not getting the deal done. Ummm . . . BOTH of those guys are Democrats. |
11-27-2007, 10:37 PM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coyote
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That doesn't appear to be an actual law, it seems more like an outline of conditions for the US to sign Kyoto or a similar pact.
Either way, with the election in Australia, we will become the only industrialized country not to be a party to the Kyoto Protocol. It's not something to be proud of, demonstrates great, not leadership. |
11-27-2007, 10:43 PM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dom1
You are totally wrong. China is a major contributor to greenhouse gases but since they have so many people they get a pass.
China now no. 1 in CO2 emissions; USA in second position - the Netherlands Environmental Assessment Agency (MNP)
Whether they are first or a close second not many doubt that China will surpass us soon in this department if they haven't already. It is ridiculous to say that they grew that much since Kyoto. Even if their co2 emission grew at 50% they would still have been in the top five if not higher. But they aren't hit with all those penalties because of their large population. India is the same way. |
No I'm not,they were not the main contributors to the greenhouse gas emissions during the industrialization period that is believed to be causing today's climate change.
The keyword is were, not now. |
11-27-2007, 10:45 PM
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Political Mastermind
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Upton
That doesn't appear to be an actual law, it seems more like an outline of conditions for the US to sign Kyoto or a similar pact.
Either way, with the election in Australia, we will become the only industrialized country not to be a party to the Kyoto Protocol. It's not something to be proud of, demonstrates great, not leadership.
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But all the other industrialized nations aren’t doing what they said they would do.
Why aren’t democrats demanding a vote on the treaty?
__________________
"If capitalism had never existed, any honest humanitarian should have been struggling to invent it. But when you see men struggling to evade its existence, to misrepresent its nature, and to destroy its last remnants - you may be sure that whatever their motives, love for man is not one of them." - Ayn Rand, Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal
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11-27-2007, 10:48 PM
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Political Mastermind
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Join Date: Mar 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Upton
No I'm not,they were not the main contributors to the greenhouse gas emissions during the industrialization period that is believed to be causing today's climate change.
The keyword is were, not now.
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So what? The Kyoto Treaty doesn’t address today’s climate change it is an attempt to do something about future climate change. You have to admit that if every country did what they said they would to under the Kyoto it wouldn’t have any immediate environmental impact.
__________________
"If capitalism had never existed, any honest humanitarian should have been struggling to invent it. But when you see men struggling to evade its existence, to misrepresent its nature, and to destroy its last remnants - you may be sure that whatever their motives, love for man is not one of them." - Ayn Rand, Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal
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11-27-2007, 10:51 PM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Upton
No I'm not,they were not the main contributors to the greenhouse gas emissions during the industrialization period that is believed to be causing today's climate change.
The keyword is were, not now.
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I never said they were the top ten years ago, but they were among the largest contributors to CO2 emissions and that is absolutely true. Just how much do you think they grew in ten years??? If they were at even 50% of the US level, which is not a stretch at all, then they were one of the main contributors. Are you denying that at the time of Kyoto they were not one of the main contributors?
In 2000, the US accounted for 20% and China was second with 15%. So, yeah, you were and still are wrong.
CRS Report RL32721 - Greenhouse Gas Emissions: Perspectives on the Top 20 Emitters and Developed Versus Developing Nations - NLE Abstract
Last edited by Dom1; 11-27-2007 at 10:53 PM.
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11-27-2007, 10:54 PM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Washington state
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coyote
So what? The Kyoto Treaty doesn’t address today’s climate change it is an attempt to do something about future climate change. You have to admit that if every country did what they said they would to under the Kyoto it wouldn’t have any immediate environmental impact.
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I agree, it would have no immediate impact, but there is a future. We may be dead and buried, but what about our children, our grandchildren.
New report from the UN says we must stabilize greenhouse gas emissions by 2015. UN: Climate Aid to Poor Costly - TIME |
11-27-2007, 10:57 PM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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