Thread: Air France Pilots Told Not To Fly Airbus Jets After Brazil Crash

June 9, 2009
Air France Pilots Told Not To Fly Airbus Jets After Brazil Crash

Air France pilots told not to fly Airbus jets after Brazil crash - Times Online



A pilots union called on Air France crew today to refuse to fly long-range Airbus jets until the airline replaced unreliable speed sensors that are believed to have led to the crash of Flight 447 off Brazil last week.

“To prevent a repeat of this disaster . . . we call on flight deck and cabin crew to refuse all flights aboard the A330 and A340 series which have not been modified,” said Alter, a union to which 10 per cent of the airline’s crew belong.

Brazilian searchers have so far retrieved the bodies of 24 of the 228 on board the Airbus A330 that came down in the Atlantic 600 miles off northeast Brazil. Submarines are now hunting for signals from the black box flight recorders that lie on the ocean floor.

The recovery yesterday of the aircraft’s vertical tail has strengthened suspicions among experts that the aircraft went out of control and broke up as a result of flying either too slowly or too fast in severe turbulence on its flight from Rio to Paris on June 1.

Air France promised this morning to complete the replacement within days of all pitot tubes — external speed sensors — on its 35 long-haul Airbuses. No flights were cancelled and other pilots’ unions said that they did not plan to boycott the aircraft.

Alter accused the airline of covering up its actions over the airspeed problem. The charge added to pressure on the airline and the Toulouse-based Airbus company to explain why it had not taken faster action to remedy equipment that its pilots were told was potentially dangerous last November.

In a November 6 circular to pilots that surfaced yesterday, Air France reported “a significant number of incidents” in which false speed readings had upset the computerised flight system — in exactly the way that appears to have happened on Flight 447.

These incidents, from which the crew were able to recover, had occurred at cruising altitude in zones of turbulence and freezing conditions, it said. As a result of the false readings — apparently caused by ice in the pitot tubes — the automatic pilot disconnected. Four minutes of data messages from the doomed Airbus last week reported the same sequence but the pilots were unable to regain control.

Airbus had been in discussion with its client airlines about unreliable pitot probes for several years and was recommending their replacement. The replacement was not mandated by any authority as an auronautical directive (AD).

Airline executives and aviation experts cautioned against haste in attributing blame for the crash, especially since the only evidence comes from the sequence of 24 messages from the aircraf’ts final four-minutes.

Tim Clark, the president of Emirates Airlines, which has a fleet of 29 A330-200 planes, said: “It is a very robust airplane. It has been flying for many years, clocking hundreds of millions of hours and there is absolutely no reason why there should be any question over this plane. It is one of the best flying today.”

However pilots and experts focused on what many saw as a fatal chain of events that exposes flaws in the highly automated flight system of the Airbus family of airliners.

Pitot tubes have been prone to blocking since they were invented in the early 18th century by Henri Pitot, a French engineer, to measure the speed of gasses or fluids. A failure in airspeed indication is a big handicap for a pilot, but the aircraft can still be flown by hand with power settings and attitude, the orientation of the aircraft in relation to its direction of flight.

In modern aircraft with advanced electronics, and particularly the ultra-automated Airbus family, pilots have less direct control over the aircraft.

The crew of the stricken Air France plane would have had to take over from a computer that was in the throws of the equivalent of a cerebral haemorrhage. In the heart of a storm, they may have lacked the information to keep the big jet flying upright in the narrow”envelope” of high altitude speed limits known as “coffin corner”. Their margin of safety could have been as little as 60-80mph, beyond which the aircraft would stall or dive, an Airbus pilot said.

Speculation over the Airbus systems and the crew’s likely response is filling the internet forums where aviation professionals gather.

One Airbus captain wrote on one site today: “I have never been taught unusual attitude recovery in the simulator. I was told that you don’t have to have this training, because the Airbus has so many protections, that you don’t need this skill (sounds very similar about the reasoning behind Titanic) . . .”

Another pilot wrote: “The automatics make life easier on the Airbus but the failure states are far more complicated and less intuitive than on a Boeing.”

Originally Posted by M9Z

In modern aircraft with advanced electronics, and particularly the ultra-automated Airbus family, pilots have less direct control over the aircraft.

The crew of the stricken Air France plane would have had to take over from a computer that was in the throws of the equivalent of a cerebral haemorrhage. In the heart of a storm, they may have lacked the information to keep the big jet flying upright in the narrow”envelope” of high altitude speed limits known as “coffin corner”. Their margin of safety could have been as little as 60-80mph, beyond which the aircraft would stall or dive, an Airbus pilot said.

Speculation over the Airbus systems and the crew’s likely response is filling the internet forums where aviation professionals gather.

One Airbus captain wrote on one site today: “I have never been taught unusual attitude recovery in the simulator. I was told that you don’t have to have this training, because the Airbus has so many protections, that you don’t need this skill (sounds very similar about the reasoning behind Titanic) . . .”

Another pilot wrote: “The automatics make life easier on the Airbus but the failure states are far more complicated and less intuitive than on a Boeing.”

Scary, isn't it?

If driving can get me there in a reasonable amount of time, I drive. I'd prefer to live or die of my own hand, thank you very much.

No matter how sophisticated a system is the failure of its weakest link is all it takes to make it fail. An iced-over pitot sensor and thunderstorm turbulence could have sent the plane outside its envelope too quickly for the pilots to react. Both Titanic and Airbus wrecked by ice.

Originally Posted by LewisWetzel

Scary, isn't it?

If driving can get me there in a reasonable amount of time, I drive. I'd prefer to live or die of my own hand, thank you very much.

But Lewis, it's hard to drive x-country or overseas unless your car is
shipped with you like on Titanic. You saw what happened to those cars, lol. As I say to Jetblast below...when I hear that some critical person like
a pilot who is responsible for hundreds of lives each flight is NOT trained
on some aspect, because "the system" has lots of backups and redundancies,
it makes my arz twitch. Look at the astronauts...Challenger, the others.
Or the Grissom/White/Chaffee fire while training on the tarmac that killed those
astronauts right here. No, train, train, train. That's how the hero pilot saved
those people - the whole plane - when he landed in the Hudson River.
He was a trainer, he trained and studied emergencies all the time. He had a
bunch of plans and went through them pretty quickly...then settled on the
least likely...which saved everyone's butts. I'm a firm believer in massive
training, and retraining..then more training. Especially when lives are
at stake. Don't want to open up a pandora's box here but firearm training
is along those same lines...lots of lives at stake. Train, train, train.
That mantra may tick you off and annoy other people but I'm a firm believer in it.
Got to stand by your own convictions and principles, right?

Originally Posted by Jetblast

No matter how sophisticated a system is the failure of its weakest link is all it takes to make it fail. An iced-over pitot sensor and thunderstorm turbulence could have sent the plane outside its envelope too quickly for the pilots to react. Both Titanic and Airbus wrecked by ice.

Titanic and Airbus wrecked by ice - good point Jetblast, plus the Space Shuttle (O-rings).
That's 3. When someone says as written that pilots were never trained for different
emergencies like this one, it makes my ass twitch. How many of our lives are in
their untrained hands at 35,000 feet...during thunderstorms and downbursts.
My ass is twitching violently now....
Actually I shouldn't laugh, situations like these are not funny.

Yeah, sounds like techno-arrogance.

Sunday Herald: International: International

Israel just sent a message.

Key figures in global battle against illegal arms trade lost in Air France crash

ARGENTINA: Argentine campaigner Pablo Dreyfus and Swiss colleague Ronald Dreyer battled South American arms and drug trafficking
From Andrew McLeod

AMID THE media frenzy and speculation over the disappearance of Air France's ill-fated Flight 447, the loss of two of the world's most prominent figures in the war on the illegal arms trade and international drug trafficking has been virtually overlooked.

Pablo Dreyfus, a 39-year-old Argentine who was travelling with his wife Ana Carolina Rodrigues aboard the doomed flight from Rio de Janeiro to Paris, had worked tirelessly with the Brazilian authorities to stem the flow of arms and ammunition that for years has fuelled the bloody turf wars waged by drug gangs in Rio's sprawling favelas.

Also travelling with Dreyfus on the doomed flight was his friend and colleague Ronald Dreyer, a Swiss diplomat and co-ordinator of the Geneva Declaration on Armed Violence who had worked with UN missions in El Salvador, Mozambique, Azerbaijan, Kosovo and Angola. Both men were consultants at the Small Arms Survey, an independent think tank based at Geneva's Graduate Institute of International Studies. The Survey said on its website that Dryer had helped mobilise the support of more than 100 countries to the cause of disarmament and development.

Buenos Aires-born Dreyfus had been living in Rio since 2002, where he and his sociologist wife worked with the Brazilian NGO Viva Rio.

"Pablo will be remembered as a gentle and sensitive man with an upbeat sense of humour," said the Small Arms Survey. "He displayed an intellectual curiosity and a determined work ethic that excited and enthused all who worked with him."

According to the International Action Network on Small Arms Control (IANSA), Dreyfus's work was instrumental in the introduction of landmark small arms legislation in Brazil in 2003. Under this legislation, an online link was created between army and police databases listing production, imports and exports of arms and ammunition in Brazil.

Dreyfus was an advocate of the stringent labelling of ammunition by weapons firms, arguing that by clearly identifying ammunition not only by its producer but also its purchaser, the likelihood of weapons being sourced by criminals from corrupt police or armed forces personnel is greatly reduced.

Though a Brazilian referendum on the right to bear arms was rejected in 2005, Viva Rio says the campaign should be considered a success because half a million weapons were voluntarily handed in to the authorities. Anti-gun activists put the referendum defeat down to fears criminals would circumvent the law and continue to gain access to small arms the usual way - through Paraguay and other bordering countries. This was not an irrational fear: until 2004, when Paraguay bowed to Brazilian pressure, even foreign tourists were allowed to purchase small arms simply by presenting a photocopy of their identity card. Dreyfus knew that many of the weapons from the so-called tri-border area between Brazil, Paraguay and Argentina were reaching Rio drug gangs.

When unidentified gunmen made off with a stash of hand grenades from an Argentine military garrison in 2006, Dreyfus deplored what he said was lax security at military depots across the world. "If a supermarket can keep control of the amount of peas it has in stock, surely a military organisation could and should be able to do the same with equal if not greater efficiency with its weapons," he said. "The key words are logisitics, control, security."

When Rio agents smashed a cell of drug traffickers who had sourced their weapons from the tri-border area, Dreyfus noted its leaders were prominent businessmen living in apartments in the plush Rio suburbs of Ipanema and São Corrado, "not in the favelas".

In a recent report posted on the Brazilian website Comunidade Segura (Safe Community), Dreyfus noted that the Brazilian arms firm CBC (Companhia Brasileira de Cartuchos) had become one of the world's biggest ammunition producers by purchasing Germany's Metallwerk Elisenhutte Nassau (MEN) in 2007, and Sellier & Bellot (S&B) of the Czech Republic in March. This would not be particularly noteworthy but for the fact that CBC's exports had tapered off in recent years due to legislation restricting exports to Paraguay, arms that often found their way back into Brazil and on to the Rio drug gangs - the "boomerang effect", as Dreyfus called it. "The commercial export of weapons and ammunition from Brazil to the bordering countries stopped in 2001," wrote Dreyfus. "CBC lost commercial markets in Latin America, but Brazil won in public security."

However, manufacturers from other countries had moved in to fill the void, and before its purchase by CBC, S&B was already "one of the marks most currently apprehended" by Brazilian police. Dreyfus said that, in view of the fact the Czech Republic was bound by the EU Code of Conduct on weapons exports - which states that EU countries must "evaluate the existence of the risk that the armament can be diverted to undesirable final destinations", CBC should "consider the risk that some of these exports end up, via diversions, feeding violence in Brazil".

Though his focus was on Latin America, Dreyfus also advised the government of Mozambique and at the time of his death was preparing to do the same for the government of Angola, where stockpiles of weapons left over from the civil war continue to pose a security problem.

Dreyfus and Dreyer were on their way to Geneva to present the latest edition of the Small Arms Survey handbook, of which Dreyfus was a joint editor. It was to have been their latest step in their relentless fight against evil.

Anytime there is a large catastrophe like this, there are always prominent persons
who are wiped out. Look at 9/11, all the high-profile people who were lost.

They knew to replace speed instruments. They chose not to. Because if they have to spend money on that than they wouldnt be able to gamble, smoke, drink and whore around. How will they pay for their fourth mansion?

Originally Posted by M9Z

Anytime there is a large catastrophe like this, there are always prominent persons who are wiped out. Look at 9/11, all the high-profile people who were lost.

Uh huh. Quoted for truth. Mossad kills with bombing.

Especially when a cover is caught in action...

Debris removed from the Atlantic is not from the airplane of Air France, says Aeronautics

The BAF (Brazilian Air Force) informed in the night of this thursday that the removed destrocos of the Atlantic in this thursday are not of the Airbus A-330 of the Air France...

A Brazilian news site is reporting the wreckage found is not from the Air France plane.

“The BAF (Brazilian Air Force) informed in the night of this thursday that the removed destroços of the Atlantic in this thursday are not of the Airbus A-330 of the Air France, that disappeared on board in the last sunday (31) with 228 people. In accordance with Brigadier General Ramon Borges Cardoso, director of the Decea (managing of the Department of Control of the Airspace), “no material of the airplane was collected”.

“Not, no material of the airplane was collected. What we saw they had been material pertaining to an aircraft who had been left because of the priority of searches of bodies. But until the moment no piece of the aircraft was recouped”, affirmed.” Sorry for bad translation to English.

So what does this wreckage belong to?

Debris removed from the Atlantic is not from the airplane of Air France, says Aeronautics | DoomDaily

Key figures in global battle against illegal arms trade lost in Air France crash

ARGENTINA: Argentine campaigner Pablo Dreyfus and Swiss colleague Ronald Dreyer battled South American arms and drug trafficking
From Andrew McLeod

AMID THE media frenzy and speculation over the disappearance of Air France's ill-fated Flight 447, the loss of two of the world's most prominent figures in the war on the illegal arms trade and international drug trafficking has been virtually overlooked.

Pablo Dreyfus, a 39-year-old Argentine who was travelling with his wife Ana Carolina Rodrigues aboard the doomed flight from Rio de Janeiro to Paris, had worked tirelessly with the Brazilian authorities to stem the flow of arms and ammunition that for years has fuelled the bloody turf wars waged by drug gangs in Rio's sprawling favelas.

Also travelling with Dreyfus on the doomed flight was his friend and colleague Ronald Dreyer, a Swiss diplomat and co-ordinator of the Geneva Declaration on Armed Violence who had worked with UN missions in El Salvador, Mozambique, Azerbaijan, Kosovo and Angola. Both men were consultants at the Small Arms Survey, an independent think tank based at Geneva's Graduate Institute of International Studies. The Survey said on its website that Dryer had helped mobilise the support of more than 100 countries to the cause of disarmament and development.

Buenos Aires-born Dreyfus had been living in Rio since 2002, where he and his sociologist wife worked with the Brazilian NGO Viva Rio.

"Pablo will be remembered as a gentle and sensitive man with an upbeat sense of humour," said the Small Arms Survey. "He displayed an intellectual curiosity and a determined work ethic that excited and enthused all who worked with him."

According to the International Action Network on Small Arms Control (IANSA), Dreyfus's work was instrumental in the introduction of landmark small arms legislation in Brazil in 2003. Under this legislation, an online link was created between army and police databases listing production, imports and exports of arms and ammunition in Brazil.

Dreyfus was an advocate of the stringent labelling of ammunition by weapons firms, arguing that by clearly identifying ammunition not only by its producer but also its purchaser, the likelihood of weapons being sourced by criminals from corrupt police or armed forces personnel is greatly reduced.

Though a Brazilian referendum on the right to bear arms was rejected in 2005, Viva Rio says the campaign should be considered a success because half a million weapons were voluntarily handed in to the authorities. Anti-gun activists put the referendum defeat down to fears criminals would circumvent the law and continue to gain access to small arms the usual way - through Paraguay and other bordering countries. This was not an irrational fear: until 2004, when Paraguay bowed to Brazilian pressure, even foreign tourists were allowed to purchase small arms simply by presenting a photocopy of their identity card. Dreyfus knew that many of the weapons from the so-called tri-border area between Brazil, Paraguay and Argentina were reaching Rio drug gangs.

When unidentified gunmen made off with a stash of hand grenades from an Argentine military garrison in 2006, Dreyfus deplored what he said was lax security at military depots across the world. "If a supermarket can keep control of the amount of peas it has in stock, surely a military organisation could and should be able to do the same with equal if not greater efficiency with its weapons," he said. "The key words are logisitics, control, security."

When Rio agents smashed a cell of drug traffickers who had sourced their weapons from the tri-border area, Dreyfus noted its leaders were prominent businessmen living in apartments in the plush Rio suburbs of Ipanema and São Corrado, "not in the favelas".

In a recent report posted on the Brazilian website Comunidade Segura (Safe Community), Dreyfus noted that the Brazilian arms firm CBC (Companhia Brasileira de Cartuchos) had become one of the world's biggest ammunition producers by purchasing Germany's Metallwerk Elisenhutte Nassau (MEN) in 2007, and Sellier & Bellot (S&B) of the Czech Republic in March. This would not be particularly noteworthy but for the fact that CBC's exports had tapered off in recent years due to legislation restricting exports to Paraguay, arms that often found their way back into Brazil and on to the Rio drug gangs - the "boomerang effect", as Dreyfus called it. "The commercial export of weapons and ammunition from Brazil to the bordering countries stopped in 2001," wrote Dreyfus. "CBC lost commercial markets in Latin America, but Brazil won in public security."

However, manufacturers from other countries had moved in to fill the void, and before its purchase by CBC, S&B was already "one of the marks most currently apprehended" by Brazilian police. Dreyfus said that, in view of the fact the Czech Republic was bound by the EU Code of Conduct on weapons exports - which states that EU countries must "evaluate the existence of the risk that the armament can be diverted to undesirable final destinations", CBC should "consider the risk that some of these exports end up, via diversions, feeding violence in Brazil".

Though his focus was on Latin America, Dreyfus also advised the government of Mozambique and at the time of his death was preparing to do the same for the government of Angola, where stockpiles of weapons left over from the civil war continue to pose a security problem.

Dreyfus and Dreyer were on their way to Geneva to present the latest edition of the Small Arms Survey handbook, of which Dreyfus was a joint editor. It was to have been their latest step in their relentless fight against evil.
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Sounds like it could be weather related flight computer problems.