Thread: The Red Cross Torture Report: What It Means

THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION TORTURE MEMO SCANDAL

Originally Posted by FIAWOL

You both show shallow, ignorant thinking. That does not make your construct of the "other" more valid. Indeed, it is such a self serving construct that the worthlessness of that simple minded drivel should be clear.

your ignorance and arrogance continue to overwhelm everything else. You are very naive and uninformed if you don't understand that islam teaches that life on earth is not of much importance and that believers have no qualms about dying in the process of killing "infidels". Its not that they are different genetically or biologically, just brainwashed from birth. We cannot deal with this type of thought using western logic, it does not apply and they do not comprehend it. Thats why they are all laughing at obozo and his bow to the saudi king. The king thought he was the superior being and obozo confirmed it for him. What a disgrace to this country and all who have died to preserve it.

Originally Posted by Big Block Bill

I am quite sick of this topic.....it has been beaten to death and been beat some more. The most sickening thing about the issue is the people beating the torture drum, either the enemy that goes far beyond torture but being they are the bad guys, they are some how not held to any standard, sort of like what do you expect from these people, the others are the beleeding heart people that get me sick, being the Red Cross, the Press, or whoever that is against the use of torture. I'll bet that let's use a group of red cross people being captured, tortured, beheaded on camera, rest asured those that are still alive are hoping for help, I wonder if torturing to find out where they are being held captive all of a sudden has a different weight now. They might say no, now, but let them face the situation and watch for the quick reality check.

The topic of the dat seems to be terrorist torture, they have to be terrorists, because they are not citizens of America, so do not deserve rights guaranteed to American citizens, and they wear no uniform of any particular country, so they play the game in nomans land. If they were actual military of some country, then they should be covered by the Geniva Convention, but they are terrorists, that is the gams they play, no rules, that is how we should play with them.... no rules......it is all that they deserve.

Are some Americans so UTTERLY ignorant of law - and indeed reality? No wonder lynching flourished so long amongst such barbarian clowns!

Originally Posted by Kynaston

Are some Americans so UTTERLY ignorant of law - and indeed reality? No wonder lynching flourished so long amongst such barbarian clowns!

How can you consider Americans barbaric? We aren't the ones cutting off heads, engaging in suicide bombings, or blowing up our own communities.

Originally Posted by Burning Giraffe

How can you consider Americans barbaric? We aren't the ones cutting off heads, engaging in suicide bombings, or blowing up our own communities.

Can you show any government cutting off American heads anywhere? Can you show any other civilized country - I discount your zionist colony obviously - paying for and indeed using torture on people who have never been tried and are therefore innocent? How many people have 'terrorists' killed in the US compared with the number of civilians your forces have killed in illegally attacking other countries? Did the UK start invading the Irish Republic over the IRA killings in Britain? The use of (much less vicious) torture in the Six Counties was soon put a stop to, what's more. Civilization is not saved - or demonstrated - by using the methods of barbarism - and you have, after all, far smaller grievances than most of those who kill others in suicide attacks and at least die sooner that sit up high and release bombs.

Originally Posted by Kynaston

Can you show any government cutting off American heads anywhere? Can you show any other civilized country - I discount your zionist colony obviously - paying for and indeed using torture on people who have never been tried and are therefore innocent? How many people have 'terrorists' killed in the US compared with the number of civilians your forces have killed in illegally attacking other countries? Did the UK start invading the Irish Republic over the IRA killings in Britain? The use of (much less vicious) torture in the Six Counties was soon put a stop to, what's more. Civilization is not saved - or demonstrated - by using the methods of barbarism - and you have, after all, far smaller grievances than most of those who kill others in suicide attacks and at least die sooner that sit up high and release bombs.

I'm not sure I understand your point. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq certainly did achieve their desired result: to draw the Islamist militants into engagements with the US military, away from American soil. The governments in Iraq and Afghanistan were both corrupt and despotic, and the people of both nations have liberties and opportunities before them that they didn't have before.

If the question at hand remains torture, then I must say that I do not see torture as an effective tool, but I would certainly never rule it out. We must keep all options available, including the terrible options of torture and nuclear bombs. Not because of a desire to cause death and pain, but out of a recognition that we are at war and that we must win the war.

Originally Posted by Burning Giraffe

...The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq certainly did achieve their desired result: to draw the Islamist militants into engagements with the US military, away from American soil. The governments in Iraq and Afghanistan were both corrupt and despotic, and the people of both nations have liberties and opportunities before them that they didn't have before.

If the question at hand remains torture, then I must say that I do not see torture as an effective tool, but I would certainly never rule it out. We must keep all options available, including the terrible options of torture and nuclear bombs. Not because of a desire to cause death and pain, but out of a recognition that we are at war and that we must win the war.

"The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq certainly did achieve their desired result: to draw the Islamist militants into engagements with the US military, away from American soil"

Oh, so that's the declared War Aim, now, is it? And there is actual evidence that "Islamist militants" were attacking American soil, is there?

"The governments in Iraq and Afghanistan were both corrupt and despotic,"

Is that any business of the USA's (or the UK's for that matter)? Well, I suppose, in the case of the USA, it is, seeing as it was the USA that installed them in the first place and sustained them in power for several years until they became a liability.

"the people of both nations have liberties and opportunities before them that they didn't have before"

Can you repeat that with a straight face, please, and don't smirk this time?

"If the question at hand remains torture, then I must say that I do not see torture as an effective tool, but I would certainly never rule it out."

Torture doesn't work, therefore rule it out. It is pointless, unless, of course, you are simply a sadist.

"We must keep all options available, including the terrible options of torture and nuclear bombs. Not because of a desire to cause death and pain, but out of a recognition that we are at war and that we must win the war"

'Winning the war' doesn't necessarily mean causing as much wanton death and destruction as possible - or, rather, it doesn't everywhere else in the world except the USA, it would appear. Perhaps Americans should actually read something relevant: say, Sun Tzu or Clausewitz? You don't even need to know Mandarin or German, as there are some quite good English translations available.

Winning a war by any means at all because "we must win the war" leads to barbarism. But even the barbarians had some sort of ethical code in warfare - you know, one on one champions' combat, honour, 'things that no real warrior would do', that sort of stuff. It was long ago recognised that unrestricted/unrestrained warfare was unacceptable, and so the Laws and Usages of War evolved which after several centuries (actually about one-and-a-half millennia from the beginnings of their jurisprudential formulation) turned first of all into the Hague Protocols and then the Geneva Conventions.

And then we come back almost to Square One - there is actual proof, is there, that Islamist Militants (a) attacked America, (b) had any involvement with the governments of Iraq and/or Afghanistan?

Originally Posted by Burning Giraffe

I'm not sure I understand your point. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq certainly did achieve their desired result: to draw the Islamist militants into engagements with the US military, away from American soil. The governments in Iraq and Afghanistan were both corrupt and despotic, and the people of both nations have liberties and opportunities before them that they didn't have before.

If the question at hand remains torture, then I must say that I do not see torture as an effective tool, but I would certainly never rule it out. We must keep all options available, including the terrible options of torture and nuclear bombs. Not because of a desire to cause death and pain, but out of a recognition that we are at war and that we must win the war.

From at least the witch trials on it has been entirely obvious that torture never has and never will do anything but confirm the insane prejudices of the torturers. Its only purpose, ever, is to shit on the face of humanity.

The governmemts of most countries, including yours, are far from admirable. To make war, except in self defence, was recognised ar Nuremburg to be a crime. The people of Afghanistan and of Iraq have no real liberties and won't have until the occupation forces get out, obviously. Don't be so silly.

Originally Posted by Burning Giraffe

How can you consider Americans barbaric? We aren't the ones cutting off heads, engaging in suicide bombings, or blowing up our own communities.

but we've engaged in torture.
which by its very nature is barbaric.

and those countries who regulate sex - kill women and gay people for being sexual - share more in common with our views on sex than the most of the world
(we aren't as bad as them. don't get me wrong. but we do empathize with some of their views)

we're also one of the few countries that still executes people.

we're not a bad place or a bad people - but we're not perfect and sometimes we're downright wrong

Originally Posted by wolf_22

but we've engaged in torture.
which by its very nature is barbaric.

and those countries who regulate sex - kill women and gay people for being sexual - share more in common with our views on sex than the most of the world
(we aren't as bad as them. don't get me wrong. but we do empathize with some of their views)

we're also one of the few countries that still executes people.

we're not a bad place or a bad people - but we're not perfect and sometimes we're downright wrong

Our sins should be visited if we are ever to call ourselves a leader of the free world. I do not know who it is our government is trying to impress with our sanctity, but they would have to be imbeciles to buy into our message in light of what America does.

Like pedophilism, it needs to be eradicated out of our society if we are ever to say we are county based on god, or we are a moral leader in the world, or we are compassionate, or we are civilized. None of that is true!!!

For a country I fought & watched my brothers die terrible deaths for, I am appalled at where I find America today. I am ashambed for my countries actions. It wasn't bad enough seeing acts of torture in war from men crazy out of their minds like wild animals, but now we have drug it home and down our streets for our children and women to see. We have turned generations of our men & women into killers with this war, who have brought it home to their familys, killing & beating them to death. How can anyone hold their head in pride at what our country has become?