Thanks storman. I wish you posted more

No it is a good discussion because sometimes personal sacrifice will show your beliefs. You own it.

I disagree. While some thread evolve into name calling, others start out with the purpose of evolving into that. This is one of them.

No I do not namecall. But you may have a point but that is not my intention. My intention was that Bush had to make no sacrifice for his impatience. Sometimes when you have to make a sacfrifice you become more patient. I started this because of Rangels draft bill. He thinks if people think they have to sacrifice they will think about it.

Also right by my thread someone started a thread with apoll asking if all democrats were hypocrits. That is really trying to ignite namecalling but you only point out my thread and that was not even my intention.

I agree, I think that thread was definately going to lead nowhere but name calling and mudslinging, and I disagreed with them when they said Democrats were hypocrits. I can't remember when I ever labeled an entire party one thing or another. If I ever did then I was wrong. I think both parties have room n them for many different viewpoints, and that I doubt that there is a candidate out there who would ever have the exact same stance as me on every issue. I have a problem with people labeling entire parties, but I will have to say that although I see it from both sides, but I see it more from the left when labeling anyone on the right as far right or neocons, especially when it is obvious they are unclear on what neoconservatism really is.

The Truth About Clinton's Avoidance of Vietnam

August 19, 1964 - Clinton registers for the draft.
--[Washington Post Sep 13 92]

September 1964 - Clinton, age 18, enters Georgetown University
--[The Comeback Kid, CF Allen and J Portis, p. 20]

November 17, 1964- Clinton is classified 2-S (student deferment). This will shield him from the draft throughout his undergraduate years.
---[Wash Post Sep 13 92]

February 16, 1968 - "The Johnson administration unexpectedly abolished graduate deferments."
--[Wash Post Sep 13 92]

March 20, 1968 - Clinton, age 21, is classified 1-A, eligible for induction, as he nears graduation from Georgetown.
--[Wash Post Sep 13 92]

Comment: Bill Clinton was the only man of his prime draft age classified1-A by that draft board in 1968 whose pre-induction physical examination was put off for 10.5 months. This delay was more than twice as long as anyone else and more than five times longer than most area men of comparable eligibility.
--[Los Angeles Times Sep 02 92]

Summer 1968 - Political and family influence keeps Clinton out of the draft. Robert Corrado -- the only surviving Hot Springs draft board member from that period -- concluded that Clinton's draft statement (the long delays) was the result of "some form of preferential treatment." According to the Times, "Corrado recalled that the chairman of the three-man draft panel ... once held back Clinton's file with the explanation that 'we've got to give him time to go to Oxford,' where the semester began in the fall of 1968.

Corrado also complained that he was called by an aide to then Senator J. William Fulbright urging him and his fellow board members to 'give every consideration' to keep Clinton out of the draft so he could attend Oxford.

Throughout the remainder of 1968, Corrado said, Clinton's draft file was routinely held back from consideration by the full board. Consequently, although he was classified 1-A on March 20, 1968, he was not called for his physical exam until Feb 3, 1969, while he was at Oxford.

Clinton's Uncle Raymond Clinton personally lobbied Senator Fulbright, William S. Armstrong, the chairman of the three-man Hot Springs draft board, and Lt. Comdr. Trice Ellis, Jr., commanding officer of the local Navy reserve unit, to obtain a slot for Clinton in the Naval Reserve.

Clinton secured a "standard enlisted man's billet, not an officer's slot which would have required Clinton to serve two years on active duty beginning within 12 months of his acceptance." This Navy Reserve assignment was "created especially for the Bill Clinton at a time in 1968 when no existing reserve slots were open in his hometown unit."

According to the LA Times, "after about two weeks waiting for Bill Clinton to arrive for his preliminary interview and physical exam, Ellis said he called (Clinton's uncle) Raymond to inquire - 'What happened to that boy?' According to Ellis, Clinton's uncle replied - 'Don't worry about it. He won't be coming down. "It's all been taken care of.' "
--[LA Times Sep 02 92]

Fall 1968 - Because of the local draft board's continuing postponement of his pre-induction physical, Clinton is able to enroll at Oxford Univ.
--[Wash Post Sep 13 92]

February 2, 1969 - While at Oxford, Clinton finally takes and passes a military physical examination.
--[Washington Times Sep 18 92]

April 1969 - Clinton receives induction notice from the Hot Springs AR draft board. Clinton however claims that the draft board told him to ignore the notice because it arrived after the deadline for induction.
--[Wash Post Sep 13 92]

June-July 1969 - Clinton receives a second induction notice with a July 28 induction date and returns home.
--[Wash Times Sep 18 92]

July 11, 1969 - Clinton's friend at Oxford, Cliff Jackson, writes, "Clinton is feverishly trying to find a way to avoid entering the Army as a drafted private. I have had several of my friends in influential positions trying to pull strings on Bill's behalf."
-- [LA Times Sep 26 92]

Clinton benefited from yet another lobbying campaign in order to evade this induction notice. "Democratic presidential candidate Bill Clinton, who has said he did not pull strings to avoid the Vietnam-era draft, was able to get his Army induction notice canceled in the summer of 1969 after a lobbying effort directed at the Republican head of the state draft agency." Arrangements were made for Clinton to meet with Col. Williard A. Hawkins who "was the only person in Arkansas with authority to rescind a draft notice. ... The apparently successful appeal to Hawkins was planned while Clinton was finishing his first year as a Rhodes scholar in England. Clinton's former friend and Oxford classmate, Cliff Jackson -- now an avowed political critic of the candidate -- said it was pursued immediately upon Clinton's return to AR in early July 1969 to beat a July 28 deadline for induction."
-- [LA Times Sep 26 92]

Comment: Jackson's statement is contrary to Clinton's that he received no special treatment in avoiding military service. "(I) never received any unusual or favorable treatment." [LA Times Sep 02 92]

August 7, 1969 - Clinton is reclassified 1-D after he arranges to enter the ROTC program at the University of Arkansas.
--[Wash Post Sep 13 92]

According to Cliff Jackson, Clinton's Oxford classmate, Clinton used the ROTC program to "kill the draft notice, to avoid reporting on the July 28 induction date, which had already been postponed. And he did that by promising to serve his country in the ROTC and to enroll in the law school that fall but he never enrolled."
--[Wash Times Sep 17 92]

Comment - Clinton's admission into the ROTC program again runs contrary to his repeated statements that he received no special treatment in order to evade military service. Col. Eugene Holmes, commander of the University of Arkansas ROTC program, said Clinton was admitted after pressure from the Hot Springs draft board and the office of Senator J. William Fulbright (D-AR).

In addition, records from the Army reveal that Clinton was not legally eligible for the ROTC program at that time. Army regulations required recruits to be enrolled at the university and attending classes full-time before being admitted to an ROTC program.

Fall 1969 - Clinton returns to Oxford for a second year. He was supposed to be at the Arkansas Law School. However, according to Cliff Jackson, "Sen. Fulbright's office and Bill himself continued to exert tremendous pressure on poor Col. Holmes to get him [Clinton] to go back to Oxford."
--[Wash Post Sep 13 92]

September 14, 1969 - The Arkansas Gazette, in Little Rock, headlined a draft suspension was reportedly planned by the President.
Comment - The article, citing a source, said Selective Service reforms when implemented, would only permit the conscription of 19-year-old men. In addition, the source said "the Army would send to Vietnam only enlistees, professional soldiers, and those draftees who volunteered to go." The source contended that these reforms, combined with troop withdrawals, "would put pressure on the Congress to enact draft legislation already proposed by the President ... and set up a lottery to conscript only 19-year-old men,"

From his letter to Col. Holmes, Bill Clinton said "....Finally, on Sept. 12 I stayed up all night writing a letter to the chairman of my draft board,......I never mailed the letter, but I did carry it on me every day until I got on the plane to return to England.". Bill Clinton was probably in the United States and well aware of the above proposal on Sep 14, 1969.

September 19, 1969 - "President Nixon, facing turmoil on college campuses, suspended draft calls for November and December of 1969 and said the October call would be spread out over three months."
--[Wash Post Sep 13 92]

October 1, 1969 - "Nixon announced that anyone in graduate school could complete the full year."
--[Wash Post Sep 13 92]

Comment - Clinton is now safe from the draft through June 1970.
October 1969 - President Nixon suspends call-up of additional draftees until a draft lottery is held in December.

October 15, 1969 - Clinton organized and led anti-war demonstrations in London.
-- [Wash Times Sep 18 92]

Comment - According to McSorley, Clinton's demonstrations "had the support of British peace organizations" such as the British Peace Council, an arm of the KGB-backed World Peace Council.

October 30, 1969 - Clinton is reclassified 1-A, eligible for induction.
--[Wash Times Sep 28 92]

Comment - "Clinton said he put himself into the draft by contacting his draft board in September or October and asking to be reclassified 1-A. ... It is not clear, however, whether that occurred at Clinton's urging or whether his failure to enroll at University of Arkansas automatically cancelled his 1-D deferment." Clinton has never produced any evidence to substantiate his claim that he initiated his reclassification.

November 16, 1969 - Clinton organized and led anti-war demonstrations in London.

December 1, 1969 - Clinton draws #311 in the first draft lottery.
--[Wash Times Sep 18 92]

Comment - Clinton was virtually assured that he would not be drafted because of the high lottery number.

December 3, 1969 - While still in England, Clinton writes to Lt. Col. Eugene Holmes, , commander of the University of Arkansas ROTC Program and states, "From my work I came to believe that the draft system is illegitimate ... I decided to accept the draft in spite of my beliefs for one reason - to maintain my political viability."

you own it? Ok there john kerry

The military records of Republicans are no better than Clinton's
I learned something ineteresting this morning about the men who are pushing the "war" against terror and operations in Afghanistan and declaring dissent to be "unpatriotic". Very few of them seem to have deigned serve in the U.S. military. Here's the info on Prominent Republicans



* Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert - avoided the draft, did not serve.

* Majority Leader Dick Armey- avoided the draft, did not serve.

* Majority Whip Tom Delay - avoided the draft, did not serve.

* Senate Minority Leader Trent Lott - avoided the draft, did not serve.

* President George W. Bush - served four years of a six-year Air National Guard commitment.

* VP Dick Cheney, former Secretary of Defense- several deferments (4), followed by a paternity deferment, did not serve "had other priorities than military service"

* Attorney Gen. John Ashcroft - deferment to teach Business at SW Missouri State

* Karl Rove - avoided the draft, did not serve

* Former Speaker Newt Gingrich - avoided the draft, did not serve (also a former military dependent -- like me)

* Former President Ronald Reagan - served in a noncombat role.

* Bob Dornan - avoided Korean War combat duty by enrolling in college acting classes

* Senator John McCain - Former POW during Vietnam. Honors include the Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of Merit, Purple Heart and Distinguished Flying Cross.

* Former Senator Bob Dole Second lieutenant in the Army's 10th Mountain Division. Two Purple Hearts for his injuries, and the Bronze Star Medal. While trying to assist a downed radio man, Dole was hit by Nazi machine gun fire in the upper right back and his right arm was so damaged that it was unrecognizable. Dole was immediately given morphine by an Army field medic to alleviate the pain, and his forehead was marked with an "M" in his own blood to alert medics. He was not expected to live.

* Chuck Hagel - two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, Vietnam

* Duke Cunningham - nominated for the Medal of Honor, received the Navy Cross, two Silver Stars, fifteen Air Medals, the Purple Heart.

Notice how the men most responsible for putting troops in the line of fire, did not serve. This doesn't mean they can't make sound decisions, but would think it would keep them from being able to claim any special expertise. SO how do leading Democrats stack up?

* House Minority Leader Richard Gephardt - Served his country in uniform, 1965-71

* House Minority Whip David Bonior - Served his country in uniform, 1968-72

* Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle - Served his country in uniform, 1969-72

* Former Vice President Al Gore - Served his country in uniform, 1969-71; recipient of Vietnam Service Medal

* Bob Kerrey Congressional Medal of Honor, Vietnam

* Daniel Inouye Congressional Medal of Honor, World War Two

* John Kerry Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam

* Charles Range Bronze Star, Korea

* Max Cleland Silver Star & Bronze Star, Vietnam

* Howell Heflin Silver Star

* Rep. Leonard Boswell (D-IA) - two tours in Vietnam, two Distinguished Flying Crosses as a helicopter pilot, two Bronze Stars, and the Soldier's Medal.

* Ambassador "Pete" Peterson, Air Force Captain, POW, Democratic congressman, Ambassador to Viet Nam, and recipient of the Purple Heart, the Silver Star and the Legion of Merit

* Rep. Mike Thompson, D-CA: U.S. Army staff sergeantwith the 173rd Airborne Brigade, Purple Heart.

The fact is that regardless of which party this generation of politicians align themselves with there are both heroes and those who avoided military service.