Yeah, but only had they listened.....

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The Lone Ranger of the AWE liberal elitists.....who was that masked man???

And now, I'm the Elitist of liberal Elitists...

Short attention span theater.

Now point out the 'seperation of church and state' in what you quoted. When you cannot find it then you might want to quote the Constitution and NOT the Supreme Court. Fact is there is NO 'seperation of church and state'.

I gave you the break down of process by which fission works, I even showed you the mass remains the same. It is a very simple concept. Energy is often needed for a chemical reaction, endothermic reactions, or it is released during the process, extothermic. In the case of fission it is an extothermic reaction. The number after the atomic symbols is the atomic weight, when you add those number and the 3 freed nuetrons you get the atomic mass of U235. It is similar to burning wood. You start with a large log and at the end you have a small pile of ash that weighs much less than the log. Matter was not 'burned' up instead much of it goes into the air as CO2. Your grasp of science seems a bit weak. Apparently excluding the Bible in your education failed to make you a more knowledgable student.

You have decided that the Big Bang is how it was and that it is the only acceptable form of knowledge for school children. You do not even understand the Law I presented you, nor the math I presented you to showed the Law, and you bitterly cling to your failed understanding that you were taught in an agnostic/atheist government school system.

U235 plus a nuetron with an atomic mass of 1 yields U236. U236 is too unstable and breaks down into Kr92, Ba141, and 3 nuetrons with the atomic mass of 1 each. 92 plus 141 plus 3 is still 236. So matter was neither created nor destroyed and energy from the bonds was released in the process. Do you understand that energy is the byproduct of the process? Do you even know what the letters in E=MC2 represent? Engery=mass times the speed of light (in a vacuum) squared.

__________________
You don't have to be crazy to be a liberal, but it helps.

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." JFK

Ask not was you can for your country, ask what your country can do for you. Obama Platform

Hi Ken,

I, and many others, infer the separation of church and state from this phrase....
How do you infer it?
No, you did not, Ken. First of all, when you split a U-235 atom, on average, 2.5 neutrons are released, not 3. And keep in mind, Ken....there are other particles that contribute to the mass of an atom besides the Proton, neutron, and electron. So, the fact that the atomic numbers seem to add up doesn't imply that there is no loss of mass. As this link says...
Nuclear fission - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

or as this link says....
Special Relativity

Where do you think the energy from an atomic bomb comes from? You can't create energy out of thin air, Ken.

Actually, no it's not....as the theory of relativity is rather complex.
Come on now, Ken...I would've thought pot shots were beneath you.... There is a very, very, very slight loss of mas when you burn wood. Lke you said, much of it is tranformed in CO2. If the loss in mass (wood -> ashes) really occured, you wouldn't be sitting there watching it. See my dollar bill comment in my previous post.
No, I haven't. There is observable evidence that supports the Big Bang Theory, but that doesn't make it stone fact.
I understand things fine, Ken....especially from the math side of things. Do you want to have a little math contest just between us?
I understand all of this, Ken...see my response above. Energy and mass are interchangeable, period. And the equation E=M*c^2 tells you at what ratio they are interchangeable. This is why for example if an object approaches the speed of light, it becomes more and more massive (technically reaching infinite mass if it reached the speed of light). But, again, according to Einstein's theory of relativity, it is impossible for a particle with positive mass to reach the speed of light. I think they have got some particles going 99.9% the speed of light, but getting that last 0.1% takes an infinite amount of energy.

Anyway, I digress. Let's review.
- Matter and energy are interchangeable governed by the equation E=M*c^2 and this is the primary means from which fusion and fission generate their energy.
- The Big Bang is a theory....and a very viable one based on observation, experimentation, etc. It doesn't address everything like what existed before it. Nevertheless, it is only a theory and not fact.
- Creationism (by a God or supreme being) is based on faith and faith alone. Everyone is free to believe in it. However, because of that pesky First Amendment, you must pursue it and other elements of your faith on your own....and not by means of public monies....e.g., on my dime.

__________________
The Lone Ranger of the AWE liberal elitists.....who was that masked man???

And now, I'm the Elitist of liberal Elitists...

I take the Constitution to mean what it says. When I joined the military a long time ago I swore to defend the Constitution, not some lawyers inferrence of the Constitution. When we get into inferring meaning of the Constitution we make the Constitution just a useless scrap of paper.

Now the government is forcing children to go to government schools and they are indoctrinating children into atheist/agnostic views. So the government is forcing a belief system on the children in disregard for the First Amendment. In all fairness the government should allow religous parents to send their children to religous schools instead of secular schools. I am not a Catholic myself, but I have a lot of respect for the education children are receiving at Catholic schools in general. Including a better understanding of math, science, and history than children are getting from government ran schools.

Where do you think the energy from wood comes from? Plants take CO2 and combine it with water to make sugars. The energy used to make it comes from sunlight. Later when wood decomposes energy is released. It is that energy that we see and feel when wood burns. Energy in U235 is generated in a similar manner using an endothermic process to create. So when U235 breaks down it releases that energy in an extothermic reaction. That is why there are special symbols for scientific equations indicating whether a reaction is endothermic or extothermic.

"You can't create energy out of thin air, Ken." Please explain the Big Bang if energy cannot be created out of thin air.

Whether you are claiming God created the universe, possibly with a big bang, or that from nothing came a huge explosion that created everything faith is required. Blind faith.

Which comes back to one faith being forced on all students by government schools often in disregard for the parents wishes.

I did take a couple of shots at you and I do apologize.

__________________
You don't have to be crazy to be a liberal, but it helps.

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." JFK

Ask not was you can for your country, ask what your country can do for you. Obama Platform

Well, see that is the problem, Ken...you make think it means one thing, I may think it means something else....either way, there is inference.
Why do you say this? I went to a public school...and I don't recall any indoctrination of atheist or agnostic views. Those are also, in my mind, religious views...and should not be pushed onto anyone including the children by government.

See, I think government should take no stance on religion except to allow you and me to pursue it in our own way freely.

Well, remember, Ken...the public schools attempt to educate everyone regardless of money, family background, etc. It's a tougher job especially in poorer areas.

But, hey, it's what you make of it. I came from a public school system and have done pretty well.
Right, but according to Einstein's theory of relativity, E = m*c^2, when a system gives off or loses energy there has to be a net loss in mass....mass was converted to energy which was in turn given off.

"Well, one theory, Ken, is that it is an endless cycle....explosion, expansion, collapse due to gravity, explosion, etc.

Not blind faith, Ken. Scientists have made observations...
1) The universe is expanding as matter appears to be moving away from a central point
2) The matter in the universe is visibly cooling

These observations indicate (but don't prove) that the universe (at least the visible one) was created by some explosion, e.g., a big bang. What was there before the "big bang?" I don't know....people, far smarter than me, have pondered that. But, they are not going to base their ideas on blind faith, but rather observation...if they can find it. And even then people will remain skeptical.....those are the joys of science.
No, Ken, we're forcing scientific observations on the students...and then some ideas and theories that scientists have regarding those observations, e.g, the scientific method
No problem.

__________________
The Lone Ranger of the AWE liberal elitists.....who was that masked man???

And now, I'm the Elitist of liberal Elitists...

When you are using words that do not appear in the Constitution in order to infer it's meaning then you have clearly ignored the words IN the Constitution. Word meanings can present an issue due to the natural drift of language over time. For example, gay used to be used to describe happy, but now means homosexual. In such cases the use of the historic meaning of the words should be used to clarify the Constitution, no inferrence needed.

When parents teach their kids at home about religon and take the kids to their place of worship only to have the government schools tell the kids that creationism is a myth then what are the kids learning? The religon of the parents get overridden to teach that only the Big Bang can explain the universe by the government schools. Religon gets relegated to the realm of myth by government schools.

You put all your faith in science and it's infallability. I realize that the only way to accept the big bang as fact is to disregard all the fundamental tenents of science. It is as if the scientists cannot see the forest for the trees. But the children are taught that the theories that cannot be tested are perfect and their religon is a myth.

Education is easy, government policies make it hard. Government has started churning out kids who canont tell you that Canada is on our northern border, that there are 9 justices on the Supreme Court, who cannot tell you that religon was a very important part of Common Sense, and who do not understand math nor science. Two things they do learn is how to put a condom on a banana, which might explain one in four teenagers having a STD, and that religon is a myth.

__________________
You don't have to be crazy to be a liberal, but it helps.

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." JFK

Ask not was you can for your country, ask what your country can do for you. Obama Platform

OK, Ken, so how am I using words that do not appear in the Constitution any more than you are?
Well, if any public school, public school teacher, etc. is teaching that creationism (Christian version), creationism (Muslim version), or any other religious beliefs are myths, then they should be sued.....for violation of the Separation of Church and State. It is not government's role to endorse or deny any religious belief.
Not at all, Ken....science is very fallible. How many times have great scientists been wrong?
Ken, what is your educational background? I'm not a physical scientist, but, rather one of those geeky mathematicians. However, you claim that these scientists...some of which are leaders in their fields...are violating the fundamental tenants of science. You should go visit their lectures and challenge them on this instead of this forum. My guess is that they could refute you quite easily. The Bing Bang Theory and other theories are quite a bit more complicated then...there was nothing...then BAM...there was everything.
What????
You know what, Ken....that's the kids', the parents', and society's fault....not the schools' fault. We live in a society the values the actress and the baseball player far more than the teacher. I call it "king of the hill" syndrome (bring back the Soviets). If they wanted to learn, they could....it's all there. But, they don't...they would rather know what's going on with Brittany. It's sad, but it's true.

__________________
The Lone Ranger of the AWE liberal elitists.....who was that masked man???

And now, I'm the Elitist of liberal Elitists...

I tell you what, have a scientist create life and I will concede that only the Big Bang should be taught in schools. Just have one of the people who know so much use the materials on hand to make my a rabbit. I am not asking them to make the materials to make the rabbit, just make the rabbit from the raw materials. Take the water, the carbon, the salt, and so on in the correct proportions and create a life. Until science can do this the government has no reason to demean religon as a myth and having no place in the schools. I am not even saying creation has to be taught in schools, but the arrogant presumption that the Big Bang started the universe in contradiction to scientific laws, not theorys, laws needs to stop. The honest answer is no one knows how the universe was created and that the Big Bang and creationism require BLIND faith. Where did God come from? Where did the material for the Big Bang come from? Again I will concede to you when a scientist can create a rabbit from the raw materials.

From statements in the past I thought you were a military strategist.

Fixing education is very easy if government is removed from it. Just sit the kids down and teach them. If a kid acts up then kick him out and not waste the time of the other kids. Seperate the kids into groups that learn at a similar pace. It should be a crime to take an intelligent kid and then teach at the speed of the slowest kid in the school. The government and the teacher's union blocks any real efforts to fix education. Segragating schools is proving to be highly effective at improving education. Specifically several school systems are now segregating by gender. Early education programs need to be eliminated as the lastest studies prove them to be a waste of time and money as children who do not have a 'head start' rapidly catch up to those who did so the government program MUST be stopped.

Clearly we will never agree. I believe in the Laws of science, Laws such as the First Law of Thermodynamics and the Second Law of Thermodynamics. "The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that "in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state." This is also commonly referred to as entropy. A watchspring-driven watch will run until the potential energy in the spring is converted, and not again until energy is reapplied to the spring to rewind it. A car that has run out of gas will not run again until you walk 10 miles to a gas station and refuel the car. Once the potential energy locked in carbohydrates is converted into kinetic energy (energy in use or motion), the organism will get no more until energy is input again. In the process of energy transfer, some energy will dissipate as heat. Entropy is a measure of disorder: cells are NOT disordered and so have low entropy. The flow of energy maintains order and life. Entropy wins when organisms cease to take in energy and die." I will not bow to the altar of the Big Bang just because it is a popular belief. For all we know there is a tide to the universe that happens so slowly that we cannot perceive it. I do not think that unconfirmed 'theories' such as the Big Bang and man made Global Warming which are in fact hypothesis should be taught in schools. Universities yes, but not to grade school nor high school students. If the Big Bang 'theory' is taught in schools then it is logical to teach creationism as a counter point.

"Scientific Law: This is a statement of fact meant to explain, in concise terms, an action or set of actions. It is generally accepted to be true and univseral, and can sometimes be expressed in terms of a single mathematical equation. Scientific laws are similar to mathematical postulates. They don’t really need any complex external proofs; they are accepted at face value based upon the fact that they have always been observed to be true.

Specifically, scientific laws must be simple, true, universal, and absolute. They represent the cornerstone of scientific discovery, because if a law ever did not apply, then all science based upon that law would collapse.

Some scientific laws, or laws of nature, include the law of gravity, Newton's laws of motion, the laws of thermodynamics, Boyle's law of gases, the law of conservation of mass and energy, and Hook’s law of elasticity.

Hypothesis: This is an educated guess based upon observation. It is a rational explanation of a single event or phenomenon based upon what is observed, but which has not been proved. Most hypotheses can be supported or refuted by experimentation or continued observation.

Theory: A theory is more like a scientific law than a hypothesis. A theory is an explanation of a set of related observations or events based upon proven hypotheses and verified multiple times by detached groups of researchers. One scientist cannot create a theory; he can only create a hypothesis.

In general, both a scientific theory and a scientific law are accepted to be true by the scientific community as a whole. Both are used to make predictions of events. Both are used to advance technology.

In fact, some laws, such as the law of gravity, can also be theories when taken more generally. The law of gravity is expressed as a single mathematical expression and is presumed to be true all over the universe and all through time. Without such an assumption, we can do no science based on gravity's effects. But from the law, we derived Einstein's General Theory of Relativity in which gravity plays a crucial role. The basic law is intact, but the theory expands it to include various and complex situations involving space and time.

The biggest difference between a law and a theory is that a theory is much more complex and dynamic. A law governs a single action, whereas a theory explains an entire group of related phenomena." from Scientific Laws, Hypotheses, and Theories - The Scientific Method

__________________
You don't have to be crazy to be a liberal, but it helps.

"Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country." JFK

Ask not was you can for your country, ask what your country can do for you. Obama Platform

Hi Ken,

I take it you are a scientist or a science teacher?? I am a military operations analyst, but my educational background is mathematics. And, obviously, I take in interest in the physical sciences. I work with several physicists, chemists, etc.

The Big Bang is a theory, Ken....and is supported by some observeable evidence...doesn't make it fact, but anyway. I'm not so sure I buy the fact that it violates physical laws....cuz if it did, why would so many in the field support it or think it plausible?

The idea behind teaching science is observation and hypothesizing and experimenting based on those observations. It's the science of discovery. The Big Bang Theory fits the mold as I'm sure other theories do as well. Creationism, the existence of God or lack thereof really do not, do they? That's the difference.

__________________
The Lone Ranger of the AWE liberal elitists.....who was that masked man???

And now, I'm the Elitist of liberal Elitists...