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04-29-2008, 02:35 PM
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Political Junkie
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Join Date: Apr 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StormanNorman
Maybe...and maybe not, Teak. I don't believe in socialism, but I also don't believe in Laissez-faire capitalism either, Teak....cuz I think you eventually end up with one large fish in the pond. Wasn't the wealth distribution in the 1890s (before any regulation) something like 5% of the population controlling 97% of the wealth....with many of the working class living in poverty? Except for the 5%, we must have been one stupid and lazy country, huh?
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Capitalism is actually a good thing, but to reduce it's socially destructive side effects, it does require some moral guidelines/international laws.
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04-29-2008, 02:51 PM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StormanNorman
Maybe...and maybe not, Teak. I don't believe in socialism, but I also don't believe in Laissez-faire capitalism either, Teak....cuz I think you eventually end up with one large fish in the pond. Wasn't the wealth distribution in the 1890s (before any regulation) something like 5% of the population controlling 97% of the wealth....with many of the working class living in poverty? Except for the 5%, we must have been one stupid and lazy country, huh?
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You should. Laissez-faire is what this country was founded upon, and what allowed it to become a world power in a relatively short time. In the 1890s and before, those with education, or imagination (and both combined) were the ones to prosper. Those who were, mostly, uneducated and lacking in imagination and drive, were working for $30-$40 per month. It is pretty much the same today, only the pay scale is higher. Those who fear taking a chance, especially on themselves, will always be the ones working for others, and "just getting by".
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If you want change stop electing "liberal: democrats and "radical" Republicans. Find and support true Conservatives; those who believe in fiscal responsibilities, individual accountability, and a smaller government, with less control of your daily life.
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04-29-2008, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teak
You should. Laissez-faire is what this country was founded upon, and what allowed it to become a world power in a relatively short time. In the 1890s and before, those with education, or imagination (and both combined) were the ones to prosper. Those who were, mostly, uneducated and lacking in imagination and drive, were working for $30-$40 per month. It is pretty much the same today, only the pay scale is higher. Those who fear taking a chance, especially on themselves, will always be the ones working for others, and "just getting by".
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I think your synopsis is a little too simple and "cut and dried" for me, Teak. One of the most striking pictures I have seen of people working in the late 1800s was taken of this group of 12 year old boys that had been working in the coal mines. Their bodies look like those of 12 year olds; their faces looked like those of 40 year olds. Are they your examples of uneducated, lacking in imagination and drive, etc.?
Laisses-fair might be fine for those little pre-industrial towns that were their own little economies onto themselves. I don't think it works all that well in an industrial, global, and impersonal market....
If you want to live in a place where the very few own the the vast majority of the wealth, try Brazil, Colombia, South Africa, etc.
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The Lone Ranger of the AWE liberal elitists.....who was that masked man???
And now, I'm the Elitist of liberal Elitists...
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04-29-2008, 03:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StormanNorman
I think your synopsis is a little too simple and "cut and dried" for me, Teak. One of the most striking pictures I have seen of people working in the late 1800s was taken of this group of 12 year old boys that had been working in the coal mines. Their bodies look like those of 12 year olds; their faces looked like those of 40 year olds. Are they your examples of uneducated, lacking in imagination and drive, etc.?
Laisses-fair might be fine for those little pre-industrial towns that were their own little economies onto themselves. I don't think it works all that well in an industrial, global, and impersonal market....
If you want to live in a place where the very few own the the vast majority of the wealth, try Brazil, Colombia, South Africa, etc.
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This is not the 1800s and welfare makes up almost half of the budget.
Eliminate all welfare and Liberals will leave the US! 
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Americans want nuclear power now!
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04-29-2008, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StormanNorman
I think your synopsis is a little too simple and "cut and dried" for me, Teak. One of the most striking pictures I have seen of people working in the late 1800s was taken of this group of 12 year old boys that had been working in the coal mines. Their bodies look like those of 12 year olds; their faces looked like those of 40 year olds. Are they your examples of uneducated, lacking in imagination and drive, etc.?
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No, the parents who sent them to those mine are. Just as the parents who raised 12 children on the farm, so they could have a labor force.
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Laisses-fair might be fine for those little pre-industrial towns that were their own little economies onto themselves. I don't think it works all that well in an industrial, global, and impersonal market....
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Didn't seem to hurt the major metro areas very much. Places like NYC, Boston, Philly, Detroit, St. Lewis. I wouldn't really call those pre-industrial towns.
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If you want to live in a place where the very few own the the vast majority of the wealth, try Brazil, Colombia, South Africa, etc.
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Why didn't you include the USA in that list. You claim thats what's happening here, now? Actually, it is happening throughout the world, it always has. Hell, even the Socialist countries have that problem.
__________________
If you want change stop electing "liberal: democrats and "radical" Republicans. Find and support true Conservatives; those who believe in fiscal responsibilities, individual accountability, and a smaller government, with less control of your daily life.
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04-29-2008, 04:09 PM
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Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Albuquerque, NM
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Unfortunately, the wealthiest do not want others to become wealthy and will, in fact, spend their wealth making sure that doesn't happen. Rather than cherish competition, they crush it.
The mantra of the wealthiest is "It is not enough that I win; others must lose."
What good is a 60' yacht if everyone has a 60' yacht? They do not wish to merely possess things, but to possess things that no one else can possess.
BTW, I see a BIG difference between being rich from one's innovative, hard-working labors, and being WEALTHY.
Like Chris Rock said, "Shaq is rich. The old, white guy signing Shaq's checks is wealthy."
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Hehetchetu. Wa uyun tinkte!
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04-29-2008, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Commissioner
Something else folks might want to think about before they decide to vote for a democrat. Now what was it that Obama wants to raise the capital gains tax up to? 25% or 35%?
<http://www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html>
The Tax Foundation - Publications > Overview w/151.html
Taxes under Clinton 1999
Taxes under Bush 2008
Single making 30K - tax $8,400
Single making 30K - tax $4,500
Single making 50K - tax $14,000
Single making 50K - tax $12,500
Single making 75K - tax $23,250
Single making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 60K - tax $16,800
Married making 60K- tax $9,000
Married making 75K - tax $21,000
Married making 75K - tax $18,750
Married making 125K - tax $38,750
Married making 125K - tax $31,250
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Quote:
Comparing Income Taxes under Bill Clinton and George Bush
by Gerald Prante and Alicia Hansen
Recently an incorrect comparison of income taxes under Presidents Clinton and Bush has been making the rounds of the internet, showing up in forwarded e-mails and on numerous blogs and message boards. (See examples here, here, here, and here.)
This message shows that income taxes under George Bush are lower than income taxes under Bill Clinton, and it relies on Tax Foundation data to make this comparison. The author used a Tax Foundation chart showing the federal individual income tax rates and brackets from 1913 to the present to calculate the income taxes paid by hypothetical married and single taxpayers at various income levels under 1999 tax law and 2008 tax law.
While the basic message of the comparison is correct (federal income taxes have indeed fallen under George Bush for groups at all points on the income spectrum), the chart created by the author of this comparison contains some mathematical errors. Furthermore, the comparisons are exaggerated by the fact that annual inflation adjustments in the tax code would have lowered tax bills in 2008 relative to 1999 under a constant nominal income amount.
The table below presents the correct amount of tax paid by each of the hypothetical taxpayers in the comparison. Note that this comparison does not take into account the Alternative Minimum Tax, and the taxpayers in these examples take the standard deduction and do not have children.
(Click here if you're having trouble viewing the table.)
Individual Income Tax Due in 2008,
Bush Law versus Clinton Law
For taxpayers who take the standard deduction and have no children
Single, income of 30,000....$3,157.50....$2,756.25
Single, income of 50,000....$7,262.50....$6,606.25
Married, income of $50,000..$5,085.00....$4,012.50
Married, income of $60,000..$6,585.00....$5,512.50
Single, income of $75,000...$14,262.50...$12,856.25
Married, income of $75,000..$9,426.50....$7,762.50
Single, income of $125,000*..$29,378.50..$26,472.25
Married, income of $125,000*..$23,426.50..$19,462.50
*This chart does not take into account the Alternative Minimum Tax
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Of course, the assumption is that a person who made $30,000 at the end of the Clinton administration is making correspondingly more today, taking into account inflation. However, thanks to the Bush tax policies that promoted lots of borrowing from overseas, the dollar has fallen in value against a basket of foriegn currencies, so the costs of critical imports like oil and gas have increased for too many people to dwarf the tax cuts.
What is the benefit of earning the same as you did under Clinton, and while saving $400 a year in income taxes you must now spend an extra $500 for things because of the higher oil price which is the result of Republican policies that discouraged investing in sustainable energy, the huge deficit created by tax cuts which weakened the dollar, and a war that both increased the deficit and further weakened the dollar and also consumes massive amounts of oil?
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04-29-2008, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StormanNorman
Hi Rob,
I could show (and already have shown) you lots of statistics here, Rob. Yes, the richer classes (mainly the top 20%) are paying a larger percentage of the total federal tax burden....just as your article says. However, your article fails to mention that they are also owning a larger and larger share of the total wealth...so much so that they have been garnering a larger and larger share of the after-tax income since 1986 and before.
In short, you just posted yet another skewed article written for the large and rather ignorant conservative masses and one with some of that jarring conservative hype, but without much substance......off you go.....
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Yep I think Ole Rob skewed his way to an "F" on his research paper and a "D" for his half hearted bias effort.
On must give weight and mention the tax loop holes the wealthy and corporations has access to just before they actually file their taxes which saves the wealthy at least $345 billion dollars annually from the treasury.
And we haven't even begun to talk about OFF SHORE TAX HAVENS which takes $100 billion from our treasury and Corporate Welfare Subsidies which annually cost tax payers and robs the treasury of 100's Billions dollars annually as well.
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AMERICA LAND OF THE FREE HOME OF THE BRAVE--BECAUSE OF OUR CONSTITUTION.
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04-29-2008, 06:15 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qurmudjin
Unfortunately, the wealthiest do not want others to become wealthy and will, in fact, spend their wealth making sure that doesn't happen. Rather than cherish competition, they crush it.The mantra of the wealthiest is "It is not enough that I win; others must lose."
What good is a 60' yacht if everyone has a 60' yacht? They do not wish to merely possess things, but to possess things that no one else can possess.
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That's why there will be one big fish left in the pond without some "rigging" of the game.
__________________
The Lone Ranger of the AWE liberal elitists.....who was that masked man???
And now, I'm the Elitist of liberal Elitists...
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04-29-2008, 06:58 PM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: chapmanville, wv
Posts: 4,723
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Qurmudjin
Unfortunately, the wealthiest do not want others to become wealthy and will, in fact, spend their wealth making sure that doesn't happen. Rather than cherish competition, they crush it.
The mantra of the wealthiest is "It is not enough that I win; others must lose."
What good is a 60' yacht if everyone has a 60' yacht? They do not wish to merely possess things, but to possess things that no one else can possess.
BTW, I see a BIG difference between being rich from one's innovative, hard-working labors, and being WEALTHY.
Like Chris Rock said, "Shaq is rich. The old, white guy signing Shaq's checks is wealthy."
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Yes indeed, they seem to have demonstrated a certain unnatural ability at keeping anyone from working hard and gaining wealth.
Report: Number of U.S. millionaires jump - Jun. 9, 2005
Millionaires in the Making
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