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Originally Posted by StormanNorman
And I never figured you to be so simple minded. You want to say that the Clinton Administration utilized torture under the same exact circumstances, to the same degree as the Bush Administration and broad brush them under the same brush....maybe they did, maybe they didn't. But, find out, Dom....before you broad brush, huh? The circumstances do matter...just as they matter in any criminal case. Maybe they are both equally guilty; maybe one is more guilty than the other given the circumstances, etc. I don't like operating with just 1's and 0's, Dom.
Dom, I'm not a Democrat, period. I do defend Clinton somewhat because I have my own personal interest....not because he is a Democrat. I am not claiming that they did not violate some ethics when it comes to torture; but, at the same time, I'm not going to buy your apparent premise that Bush and Clinton are one in the same in this regard.....not without significantly more detail.
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I never said they were one and the same, what I said was that they both condoned torture - and I am not sure how many times or different ways you want me to say it. I never said they treaed torture the exact same way. I am saying that both condoned torture, which is absolutely 100% true. I am also saying that people who condemn Bush and defend Clinton for it are frauds when it comes to torture. Fact is he did condone it. Also, we were shipping the captured people to three main places, and there are quotes that from the men in charge of doing it of having a choice where to send them.
My only premise is that people who call Bush out for torture and not Clinton are frauds. I have made that perfectly clear a number of times now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam
The subject of rendition is difficult to research because of it's secretive nature. Dom is correct that it began under Clinton however every investigation has shown that it involved handing a citizen back to their own country and was limited to a few.
After 2001 rendition was expanded and the criteria changed and included our very own Guatanamo. There were several highly publicized cases of mistaken idientity -one a Canadian citizen.
Rendition for a rare few sent back to their own country is different then hundreds of people and our prison in Guatanamo clearly ,however I agree it is still wrong. I think if Clinton had ever known how it would be used-not in a rare case of handing back to a country it would not have happened however I think it was one area he was wrong to have allowed the rare instance he did.
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How do you know all of them are sent back to their own country? They certainly say that they had a choice where they sent them, although most were sent to Egypt because evidently they torture the most. From waht I understand this is how it works in some cases. The US wants to question some people and they get some pre-arranged charges filed by a friendly government (ie Egypt) and then capture the lucky fellas. Then they go into a third nation and capture the guy, with or without telling that current country, and then they hold him for a few days for questioning - without charges. They then deliver to the nation who have already set up pre-arranged charges and the guy gets tortured for information. Scheuer said it was the most effective tool in counterterrorism and he also said that Clinton did indeed know what was going on.
If Clinton had ever known how it would be used? What the hell!?!?!?!?!?! He knew EXACTLY how it was going ot be used, unless you are going to call the men who he appointed liars. Not only did he know, but Gore knew also.
Use of Extraordinary Renditions Has Changed; Risk of Torture Hasn’t, Panelists Say
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My experience was that there was no failure on the part of the Agency to inform senior leaders in both administrations [as to] what would happen to these people if they were taken to Middle Eastern countries." I believe him even if you still cling to your defense of Clinton on this matter. I guess torture is kind of partisan to you to, huh?
Condoning torture is condoning torture. By even sending prisoners to countries that you know practice torture and the prisoner is going to be torture violates human rights laws and treaties which were in place before the rendition program even began.
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