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05-14-2008, 06:31 PM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Merrimack, NH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanite
would you have sex with one?
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Hard to say without knowing anything about the specific person. Millions of things turn people off to sex with the people around them, and that is a good thing, otherwise, people would be humping each other all over the place and planes would fall out of the sky, cars crash into each other, and people would be run over in the streets as they make like creatures with two backs.
I can say that I wouldn't have sex with you.
Do you think that says I'm unwilling to have sex with a transexual?
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05-14-2008, 06:38 PM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Merrimack, NH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanite
Its all nurture, its pure suggestion. You reward a child for acting feminine it may later in life come to the conclusion that its a woman in a man's body. look up your own fucking research, this shit is easy to google.
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Ah, you must be a patient of Dr. John Money of Johns Hopkins University. You aren't posting to this forum from the great beyond, are you? If not, then you must not be the patient that proved what you claim for Dr. Money:
CBC News Indepth: David Reimer
Too bad Dr. Money's patient and lab rat, David, didn't agree with him or you.
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05-14-2008, 06:44 PM
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Political Mastermind
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loa
I'm really curious now. Even when I specifically googled "transsexuality relation to abuse", I found pretty much nothing supporting your claim.
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quote i found within a minute of looking:
Dissociative disorders and traumatic Childhood Experiences in transsexuals
"The total score for the dissociative symptoms revealed no significant differences between the transsexuals and the psychiatric inpatients. However, the higher DES score among transsexuals compared with a normal population was found to be due largely to one item. A surprisingly high prevalence of emotional maltreatment was recorded. The results suggest that both the DES and the SCID-D-R have limited validity as instruments for screening and diagnosing dissociative disorders in transsexuals. Psychiatrists should be mindful of the possible existence of dissociative disorders in transsexual patients. Further investigations are needed to clarify the effects of traumatic childhood experiences on sexual identity in transsexuals and to throw more light on the phenomenological correlation between transsexualism and dissociative identity, using taxometric analyses."
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05-14-2008, 06:46 PM
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Political Mastermind
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mulp
Ah, you must be a patient of Dr. John Money of Johns Hopkins University. You aren't posting to this forum from the great beyond, are you? If not, then you must not be the patient that proved what you claim for Dr. Money:
CBC News Indepth: David Reimer
Too bad Dr. Money's patient and lab rat, David, didn't agree with him or you.
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sex is nature, gender is nurture
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05-15-2008, 06:23 AM
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Political Guru
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Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanite
quote i found within a minute of looking:
Dissociative disorders and traumatic Childhood Experiences in transsexuals
"The total score for the dissociative symptoms revealed no significant differences between the transsexuals and the psychiatric inpatients. However, the higher DES score among transsexuals compared with a normal population was found to be due largely to one item. A surprisingly high prevalence of emotional maltreatment was recorded. The results suggest that both the DES and the SCID-D-R have limited validity as instruments for screening and diagnosing dissociative disorders in transsexuals. Psychiatrists should be mindful of the possible existence of dissociative disorders in transsexual patients. Further investigations are needed to clarify the effects of traumatic childhood experiences on sexual identity in transsexuals and to throw more light on the phenomenological correlation between transsexualism and dissociative identity, using taxometric analyses."
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Just out of interest, what did you google?
Also, I too showed some symptoms of dissociative disorders at first. Apparently, it was because of the distress that the gender dysphoria caused to me. The moment I started transitioning, most of them went away.
Essentially, the "abuse" that made me dissociative, made me unconsciously distance myself from the real world, was being in the wrong body.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanite
sex is nature, gender is nurture
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Ever read about the infant boy who, due to some complications, had a sex change right after birth and was raised as a girl? He went all dysphoric and transitioned back.
Last edited by Loa; 05-15-2008 at 06:25 AM.
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05-15-2008, 11:20 AM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Merrimack, NH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanite
quote i found within a minute of looking:
Dissociative disorders and traumatic Childhood Experiences in transsexuals
"The total score for the dissociative symptoms revealed no significant differences between the transsexuals and the psychiatric inpatients. However, the higher DES score among transsexuals compared with a normal population was found to be due largely to one item. A surprisingly high prevalence of emotional maltreatment was recorded. The results suggest that both the DES and the SCID-D-R have limited validity as instruments for screening and diagnosing dissociative disorders in transsexuals. Psychiatrists should be mindful of the possible existence of dissociative disorders in transsexual patients. Further investigations are needed to clarify the effects of traumatic childhood experiences on sexual identity in transsexuals and to throw more light on the phenomenological correlation between transsexualism and dissociative identity, using taxometric analyses."
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Well, a two year old boy who plays with dolls and dresses like a girl is likely to be abused, as is a two year old girl who won't play with dolls but instead plays with guns and refused to dress like a girl. Such children are constantly in conflict with their parents from their very early years, and depending on the reward-punishment scheme of their parents will accomodate their parent-dictator-prison-guard and pass as normal until they are free of their parents.
For example, David Rehmer was abused by his parents at the advice of a medical researcher at John Hopkins research hospital, one of the most highly touted hospitals in the world. In fact, Dr Money may have actually been a child molester based on David's recall of what the doctor did to him when he was a small child.
So, when you say that David was by nuture a girl, and then reverted to his nature of being a boy, you are correct that he was abused, but the abuse was trying to turn him into a girl by forcing girl like behavior on him.
In other words, nurturing David as a girl contrary to his nature was the child abuse, and it was done by his parents at the direction of the leading proponent of the idea that you hold, that sexual identity is defined by nurture.
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05-15-2008, 11:22 AM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loa
Ever read about the infant boy who, due to some complications, had a sex change right after birth and was raised as a girl? He went all dysphoric and transitioned back.
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His name was David Riemer.
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05-15-2008, 11:46 AM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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By the way, the discussion using the term transgender creates a lot of confusion because it is generally understood to apply to only a portion of the general condition of sexual ambiguity. The term that both the people who study the nature of sexuality, and of those who are sexually intermediate, is intersexual. For reasons that aren't entirely clear to me, Britain (England) and Australia are both far along in recognizing the reality of intersexuals, and of dealing with them ethically, and dealing with then legally.
The US has historically been the most aggressive in both burying the reality of intersexuals, and denying intersexuals, and then secretly and without consent of the person ends up being the victim of medical abuse, or of the parents of that infant, young child, and early teen, a small number of doctors have tried to "fix" nature and eliminate the nature of individuals who deviate from the text book boy-girl dichotomy.
By the way, Secrets of the Dead, a show on PBS, just a few weeks ago did a story on the East German doping of athletes, focused on the women. Clearly this was abuse on a huge scale that affected their sexual development. The show concluded by talking about the present life of some of the victims, with two women now married to each other, walking together, and I defy you to say that they don't look like a man and woman in their later years, I'd say in their fifties, he balding with a deep voice.
Another woman is shown bicycling, and she is your stereotypical butch-dyke in appearance. She has a deep voice for a woman, sort of the body of a man, but she didn't pass as a woman when dressed as a woman, nor pass as a man, when dressed as a man, just in the chance contact one has living one's life. So, she dresses and acts in an ambiguous action.
Pictures of all three as girls when they first joined the East German athletic program makes it clear they were definitely you classic girl, but the male hormones they were given just before puberty started and then continuing on until they left the program a few years later clearly changed their nature. Assuming you consider the way a person is treated by those raising them to be nurture, their parents and coaches treated them as girls because they were to compete in the woman's athletic events, so the fact they came out looking much more male has to do with nature, albeit nature hijacked by man.
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05-15-2008, 11:55 AM
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Political Mastermind
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But what you're talking about required he be born one gender, then have a sex change into the gender he was not. Then, he wanted to go back once he realized. That makes sense, he truly does have a man's brain and only part of a woman's body. However, other people, trannys, aren't coming back from a botched surgery. Of course they'd love to rationalize the irrational with something about thats how they always felt and even now apparently take it as far as saying their brain was of the opposite gender all along. But the fact remains that tranny's are often victims of sexual molestation, rape and physical abuse at an early age resulting in mixed understandings of gender dynamics. Loa, weren't you abused? Can't you admit it?
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05-15-2008, 12:15 PM
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Machiavelli Incarnate
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loa
I did, and almost all of it agreed with me.
Besides, your argument is flawed, as there are many excessively masculine MtFs and excessively feminine FtMs.
Male =/= Masculine
Female =/= Feminine
EDIT:
I'm really curious now. Even when I specifically googled "transsexuality relation to abuse", I found pretty much nothing supporting your claim.
I'll also quote something I did find:
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The medical Industry is making more money doing sex change operations versus developing a surgery and/or drugs to treat this chemical imbalance.
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