I figure it's worth a shot, Vincent.... 2,000+ years of continuous violence sure hasn't gotten the region very far down the road. Besides, what's there to lose by heeding Isaiah 1:18 and getting all the parties to "Come now, and let us reason together"?

funny post. But in all honesty who do you think he is going to blame. Aladinijad, the aitollahs.

Gixaholic - Let me ask you this... do you think the invasion of Iraq has helped or hurt the efforts of the West in the War on Terrorism?

Coridelier, don't go anywhere, This forum needs your objectivity badly.

I give this thread *****A new breath of fresh air is most welcome. I like your ability to see through the fog of bias.

Your prespective takes into account the posability of other points of view that have merit.

I especially agree with the effects of sanctions on the lead, without effecting the leaders. Cuba may not still be in the Castro camp had he had to answer for the economic problems of the people without the U.S. offering itself up as the scape goat. Simple, blame the U.S. says Castro, "can't you see what they are doing to you and your family".

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Archimedes
Because they can't wait use Rescue 8
self closing flotation rescue device.

About Iran's floundering economy when the regime shifted to hard line. Would one think the support Saddom had from the us in the war with iran may have had something to do with the economic situation before the change? I think Iran's knowledge of that might just have had some influence on the shift.

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Archimedes
Because they can't wait use Rescue 8
self closing flotation rescue device.

Well, thank you kindly, r8d... I may get distracted from here from time to time, but I'm not planning on disappearing.

I think Iran's shift to a hard line goes way back further than that... if you go back and look at the history of Iran, there's always been this constant tension between the moderates who wanted to jump into the modernity with both feet and the conservatives who maintained that Iran should stick to her traditional Islamic values. Under the Shah, so long as he kept the oil flowing to the West and at least paid lip service to the moderates, Iran was America's best friend in the region.

When Mossadegh over threw the Shah in the 50's, he managed to draw together these two strands of Iranian society, and Iranian history might have been very different... well, except for the fact that he had the nerve to try to get the West to pay fair prices for Iranian oil - and so the CIA and MI6 engineered his overthrow and restored the Shah to power. So all was well again... the US was getting cheap oil from their good friend once more, and with all his proceeds, the Shah was buying massive amounts of US military hardware. Only problem was that the US military personnel stationed there sometimes ran afoul of Islamic law... and so in 1964 the Department of Defense drafted a Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) that pretty much exempted US personnel from Iranian laws, which the Shah rubber-stamped. Naturally this kind of pissed off Iranians who suddenly became second-class citizens in their own country, and an interesting fella by the name of Ayatollah Khomeini managed to marshal the resentment into riots, which promptly got him exiled to Paris and made him the hero of the Anti-Monarchy, Anti-Western elements there.

Things pretty much went downhill from there, and as he lost more and more support, the Shah became more and more repressive, which caused him to lose more and more support - you get the picture. Well, anyway the pressure built up until the Iranian Revolution of 1979 that swept Khomenei back into Tehran and into power, the monarchists and moderates both discredited by the Shah's heavy hand and America's inept handling of the situation over 30 years.

You'd think there'd be lessons to be learned there, wouldn't you?

The U.S. rarely learns lessons the easy way or the first time. Look at the histury books. Iraq parallels the Vietnam War in some circumstances and the U.S. is yet again screwing over its allies, but this time they are not going to take it.so the Americans says that its allies are cowards and that they are on the wrong side of the argument and so continues the self-righteous attitude formed during the early years of the Cold War.

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quidquid Latine dictum sit altum viditur.

I agree with the train of events you stated Kix. My brother was in Iran for almost four years training the iranians to use the F104 and it's weapon systems. He had told me at the time about the repressive treatment the shaw put on his people. Within a year after he came back it went to pieces. There was a long build up to the uprising that finally got rid oh the shaw, and America was part of it.

On my earlier post on this I simply was ading to the reason for the economic condition that caused the shift.

__________________
Archimedes
Because they can't wait use Rescue 8
self closing flotation rescue device.