Thread: Myth of Consensus Explodes: APS Opens Global Warming Debate

Originally Posted by Heckler

Actually, if you take into account the whole process of making the fuel from the raw material, I doubt "far worse" is a reasonable statement.

The process of just extracting oil has been/is incredibly damaging to the environment, in a wide variety of ways. The process of distribution has proven even more damaging.

At any rate, there are many alternatives, not just ethanol.....

But with ethanol, since it replaces food land, farmers have to grow more corn, meaning that they cut into wetlands and other marginal lands to grow. This creates far more erosion, and the use of fertilizers contribute to ocean blooms.

So yes, in total ethanol is much worse.

Originally Posted by TakuanSoho

But with ethanol, since it replaces food land, farmers have to grow more corn, meaning that they cut into wetlands and other marginal lands to grow. This creates far more erosion, and the use of fertilizers contribute to ocean blooms.

So yes, in total ethanol is much worse.

Not if you grow Algae.

Algae Farm for Fuel « Some Knowledge

Scientists are working on ways to grow algae for fuel. Certain species of algae produce large quantities of oil. Using water, carbon dioxide, and sunlight, algae can produce all the fuel the world needs. Algae is more productive per acre of pond area than most crops and can continue to grow and be harvested year round in suitable climates. There is little waste in an algae operation, as the plant produces oils, starches, and protein that can be used as feedstocks for fuel production or for food.
<snip>


Algae - like a breath mint for smokestacks | csmonitor.com

Fed a generous helping of CO2-laden emissions, courtesy of the power plant's exhaust stack, the algae grow quickly even in the wan rays of a New England sun. The cleansed exhaust bubbles skyward, but with 40 percent less CO2 (a larger cut than the Kyoto treaty mandates) and another bonus: 86 percent less nitrous oxide.

After the CO2 is soaked up like a sponge, the algae is harvested daily. From that harvest, a combustible vegetable oil is squeezed out: biodiesel for automobiles. Berzin hands a visitor two vials - one with algal biodiesel, a clear, slightly yellowish liquid, the other with the dried green flakes that remained. Even that dried remnant can be further reprocessed to create ethanol, also used for transportation. <snip>

Originally Posted by crowonapost

Not if you grow Algae.

Algae Farm for Fuel « Some Knowledge

Scientists are working on ways to grow algae for fuel. Certain species of algae produce large quantities of oil. Using water, carbon dioxide, and sunlight, algae can produce all the fuel the world needs. Algae is more productive per acre of pond area than most crops and can continue to grow and be harvested year round in suitable climates. There is little waste in an algae operation, as the plant produces oils, starches, and protein that can be used as feedstocks for fuel production or for food.
<snip>


Algae - like a breath mint for smokestacks | csmonitor.com

Fed a generous helping of CO2-laden emissions, courtesy of the power plant's exhaust stack, the algae grow quickly even in the wan rays of a New England sun. The cleansed exhaust bubbles skyward, but with 40 percent less CO2 (a larger cut than the Kyoto treaty mandates) and another bonus: 86 percent less nitrous oxide.

After the CO2 is soaked up like a sponge, the algae is harvested daily. From that harvest, a combustible vegetable oil is squeezed out: biodiesel for automobiles. Berzin hands a visitor two vials - one with algal biodiesel, a clear, slightly yellowish liquid, the other with the dried green flakes that remained. Even that dried remnant can be further reprocessed to create ethanol, also used for transportation. <snip>

Algae is interesting. You could very well be right on that since it can be grown in the desert.

But that isn't ethanol.

I am for rational alternatives, algae may be one, ethanol though is most certainly not.

Originally Posted by TakuanSoho

But with ethanol, since it replaces food land, farmers have to grow more corn, meaning that they cut into wetlands and other marginal lands to grow. This creates far more erosion, and the use of fertilizers contribute to ocean blooms.

So yes, in total ethanol is much worse.

That does not of necessity need to happen if proper farming methods and/or lands are employed. There is much idle farmland in the us. No wetlands need to be used. If proper farming methods are used there is little/no erosion.

No, not when you consider the toxic chemicals associated with the extraction/processing of oil...that is far more damaging. The leakage and spills associated with the oil industry "appear" to be unavoidable based on historical experience. Look at the Mississippi last week, for instance

Originally Posted by Heckler

That does not of necessity need to happen if proper farming methods and/or lands are employed. There is much idle farmland in the us. No wetlands need to be used. If proper farming methods are used there is little/no erosion.

No, not when you consider the toxic chemicals associated with the extraction/processing of oil...that is far more damaging. The leakage and spills associated with the oil industry "appear" to be unavoidable based on historical experience. Look at the Mississippi last week, for instance

Nothing compared to ethanol's damage. You can't avoid the damage from farming, even with safe agriculture adding more land will make the problem worse.

This also doesn't take into account that burning ethanol is a bigger polluter than burning oil.

Rush To Produce Corn-based Ethanol Will Worsen 'Dead Zone' In Gulf Of Mexico, Study Says

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/08/sc...hp&oref=slogin

Again, I am for alternatives, what I have read on algae seems promising, however ethanol is NOT the answer.

Originally Posted by TakuanSoho

Algae is interesting. You could very well be right on that since it can be grown in the desert.

But that isn't ethanol.

I am for rational alternatives, algae may be one, ethanol though is most certainly not.

Um ethanol is a form of alcohol created from bio mass. Algae is biomass. It can create ethanol.

Through a process, one can do fermentation of starches & turn them into ethanol.

Yes it is ethanol & oil.

Originally Posted by crowonapost

Um ethanol is a form of alcohol created from bio mass. Algae is biomass. It can create ethanol.

Through a process, one can do fermentation of starches & turn them into ethanol.

Yes it is ethanol & oil.

Are you sure on that. Every time I have read about ethanol and potential sources, algae is never mentioned. I know it falls into biofuel, but does it fall into the ethanol subcategory?

If it does, my bad. I am talking about using foodstuffs for ethanol. That is a bad thing. However, using algae for ethanol (if it is called that) would be a good thing.

Originally Posted by TakuanSoho

Are you sure on that. Every time I have read about ethanol and potential sources, algae is never mentioned. I know it falls into biofuel, but does it fall into the ethanol subcategory?

If it does, my bad. I am talking about using foodstuffs for ethanol. That is a bad thing. However, using algae for ethanol (if it is called that) would be a good thing.

Ya I pulled it from the article actually.

It's pretty new so I'm not surprised you would not be familiar with it. I learned about it from a poster here named Pipes. He's pretty conservative & his interests in it are purely economic not environmental.

You can make oil & Ethanol. I think it has some really promising potential.
There's a guy out of Texas who has gotten it to grow in these special plastic bag containers, so one can have it in very concentrated areas.

The potential is pretty economically powerful.

Crows assertion is correct, biodiesel from ethanol coming in 2009:

Algae farm in Mexico to produce ethanol in '09 | Green Tech - CNET News.com

"Algenol's technology was first developed in the mid 1980s"

We've wasted a lot of time......

FYI, I'm not a big corn ethanol proponent, there are much better alternatives, but it is NOT "far worse" than oil.

Originally Posted by crowonapost

Ya I pulled it from the article actually.

It's pretty new so I'm not surprised you would not be familiar with it. I learned about it from a poster here named Pipes. He's pretty conservative & his interests in it are purely economic not environmental.

You can make oil & Ethanol. I think it has some really promising potential.
There's a guy out of Texas who has gotten it to grow in these special plastic bag containers, so one can have it in very concentrated areas.

The potential is pretty economically powerful.

Actually I am well aware of it, I just thought it fell into a different category of biofuel from ethanol.

Algae has been used as fuel for a while, but there has been some advances recently that would allow for widescale growth of it. A company in New Mexico has a test facility that is pretty neat.

The only draw back is that since it is new, I want to see it in action before I start singing universal praise for it. There are lots of neat new things that promise much, but deliver little. I hope strongly that algae doesn't fall into that category, because it could definitely be a great resource.