The immunity from Kyoto Protocol limitations that China enjoys is based on their past. Greenhouse gas emissions naturally increased with the rise of industrialization. China lagged behind in industrialization, therefore lagged in emissions, as well. As you point out, they've more than made up for it.

I'm not defending China's position of immunity to some of the standards in the pact. I don't agree with it. What I am doing, is pointing out the stated justifications of the Protocol in relation to China. Inequities, in regard to China, should not void the entire pact.

They weren't lagging behind when Kyoto was written. They were in second . . . even before increased industrialization.

The immunity isn't based on their past, what made you ever think that? It is based on their enormous population, but it still doesn't get rid of the fact that they have been second for quite a while and may well be first right now. Like I also showed, India was fourth and I think they are third now - and their immunity is also based on their population, not on their past.

So if you want to stop future warming wouldn't developing countries also have to reduce their emissions?

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Developing countries like China and India did not have to make reductions during this "first commitment period" but are expected to in the second commitment period. We had years of leading in emissions and they were given immunity because they were considered a developing country and all those years when they had minimal emissions during our industrial period.

I agree

True we were the leaders for years so they were given temporary immunity but they should not in the next agreement IMO.

You are both right in a sense-we had many years of being the leader and they considered this cumulative effect along with emissions per capita and developing nation status. Developing countries like China and India did not have to make reductions during this "first commitment period" but are expected to in the second commitment period and they should be forced with sanctions if they do not.

It will happen-leaders of both parties and scientists see the truth. It is already happening within the US by cities, states and business.

China rejects binding targets on greenhouse emissions - Forbes.com

China rejects binding targets on greenhouse emissions

HAMBURG, Germany (Thomson Financial) - China promised Tuesday to 'do its best' on fighting climate change but rejected calls that Asia should sign up to binding targets on cutting carbon emissions.

Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi said China and other Asian nations cannot bear the same responsibility for restricting greenhouse gas emissions as the developed world.

'The developed world should do more but China will do its best,' he said at the closing press conference of the Europe-Asia meeting (ASEM) of foreign ministers in Hamburg that brought together diplomats from 43 countries.

'We believe that in fighting climate change we should have a common goal but differentiated responsibilities,' Yang added, quoting from a declaration adopted at the meeting.

German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier, who hosted the event, confirmed that Europe and Asia had failed to agree on the need to set global, binding restrictions on greenhouse gas emissions after 2012 when the Kyoto Protocol runs out.

'There were disagreements on setting binding targets,' Steinmeier told the press conference.

The showdown on how best to fight global warming comes just a week ahead of the Group of Eight summit in Heiligendamm, Germany, to which Chancellor Angela Merkel has invited both China, India and other leading emerging nations.


tf.TFN-Europe_newsdesk@thomson.com

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"If capitalism had never existed, any honest humanitarian should have been struggling to invent it. But when you see men struggling to evade its existence, to misrepresent its nature, and to destroy its last remnants - you may be sure that whatever their motives, love for man is not one of them." - Ayn Rand, Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal

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India rejects greenhouse gas limits

INDIA says it will reject proposals to limit greenhouse gas emissions at a summit meeting of the world's leading economies next month because stricter limits would slow its booming economy.

“Legally mandated measures for reducing greenhouse gas emissions are likely to have significant adverse impacts on GDP growth of developing countries, including India,” environment ministry secretary Pradipto Ghosh said.

“This in turn will have serious implications for our poverty alleviation programs,” he said.

“Legal mandates on greenhouse gas mitigation in any form will impact our growth, and this is not the path we wish to pursue.”

Summit host Germany has called for a statement limiting worldwide temperature rise this century to 2C and cuts to global greenhouse emissions to 50 per cent below 1990 levels by 2050.

But chances of a consensus seem remote with the United States rejecting the idea of mandatory emissions targets, as well as language calling for G8 nations to raise energy efficiency.

Global debate on climate change has acquired a new urgency as the Kyoto Protocol, the only global agreement that sets specific targets for reducing greenhouse gas emissions, expires at the end of 2012.

Talks on renewing the deal are under way, with the next round scheduled to take place in Indonesia in December.

India rejects greenhouse gas limits | Herald Sun

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"If capitalism had never existed, any honest humanitarian should have been struggling to invent it. But when you see men struggling to evade its existence, to misrepresent its nature, and to destroy its last remnants - you may be sure that whatever their motives, love for man is not one of them." - Ayn Rand, Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal

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TODAY'S ZAMAN

Turkey rejects Kyoto

We reject Kyoto because it’s against our interests’

Energy and Natural Resources Minister Hilmi Güler has announced that Turkey has declined to sign the Kyoto Protocol for the sake of the country's national interests, in particular because certain parts of the protocol would hinder Turkey's infrastructure development.

Güler explained that there were four criteria when it came to energy -- energy security, diplomacy, economy and legislative -- emphasizing that the situation became even more complicated when Turkey's geopolitical position was taken into consideration.

At a meeting sponsored by the Marmara Group, he said it is necessary to be cautious when it comes to energy issues, pointing out the binding nature of international agreements, according to the Anatolia news agency.

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"If capitalism had never existed, any honest humanitarian should have been struggling to invent it. But when you see men struggling to evade its existence, to misrepresent its nature, and to destroy its last remnants - you may be sure that whatever their motives, love for man is not one of them." - Ayn Rand, Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal

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The Kyoto Protocol is Dead
The activists don't know it yet; but the Europeans do
Ronald Bailey | December 17, 2004

Buenos Aires—The Kyoto Protocol is dead. There will be no further global treaties that set binding limits on the emissions of greenhouse gases (GHG) after Kyoto runs out in 2012. Under the Kyoto Protocol, industrialized countries are supposed to reduce their emissions of greenhouse gases 5.2 percent below their 1990 emissions levels by 2012. The European Union agreed to reduce its overall GHG emissions by 8 percent during that period. To cut its carbon emissions, the European Union has established a carbon trading scheme in which companies must purchase permits to emit carbon. The number of carbon permits is capped at 8 percent below 1990 emission levels. The European Union and environmentalist activists have been pushing for negotiations to establish more stringent emissions limits for a commitment period after 2012. It's not going to happen.

The conventional wisdom that it's the United States against the rest of the world in climate change diplomacy has been turned on its head. Instead it turns out that it is the Europeans who are isolated. China, India, and most of the rest of the developing countries have joined forces with the United States to completely reject the idea of future binding GHG emission limits. At the conference here, Italy shocked its fellow European Union members when it called for an end to the Kyoto Protocol in 2012. These countries recognize that stringent emission limits would be huge barriers to their economic growth and future development.

"I've been wondering if a cap and trade system for reducing carbon emissions would be successful," said Taishi Sugiyama, a senior researcher at Japan's Central Research Institute of Electric Power Industry. "I think the answer is no. The market for carbon credits will likely shrink to be only within Europe after 2012." Sugiyama was participating in a panel discussion looking at "Options for post-2012 global climate regime". The consensus of the panel members—including HenrikHasselknippe of the Point Carbon trading consultancy, Jonathan Sinton from the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory, and Axel Michaelowa the head of the International Climate Policy Program at the Hamburg Institute of International Economics—was that the Kyoto process is over. Sugiyama flatly predicted that Kyoto signatories Canada, Japan, and Russia will withdraw from the treaty after 2012.

So what now? Two different but complementary paths for addressing any future climate change have emerged from the COP-10 Climate Change Conference. The Europeans and activists have been pushing the first, which envisions steep near-term reductions (next 20 years) in the emissions of GHG as a way to mitigate projected global warming. On the other hand, the United States has been advocating a technology-push approach in which emissions continue to rise and then GHG concentrations and emissions are cut steeply beginning in about 20 years. Over that time, the US sees the development of new energy efficient technologies, the creation of low cost methods for capturing and storing carbon dioxide both as emissions and atmospheric concentrations, and the invention of low carbon energy supplies. Such an approach has the advantage of fostering economic growth in the developing countries lifting hundreds of millions from abject poverty over the next 20 years.

Sugiyama recommended that the technology-push approach be formalized outside of the Kyoto Protocol process with a Zero Emissions Technology Treaty. Such a treaty would have broad appeal because it avoids the inevitable conflicts over allocating emissions targets and because most countries recognize the importance of long-term technological progress. Sugiyama argued that a global cap and trade system is way too premature for developing countries to join because effective low-cost ways to cut carbon emissions simply don't exist. "I cannot imagine a cap and trade system over the whole globe without low cost energy and emissions control technologies," said Sugiyama. However, as advanced energy technologies emerge over the next couple of decades, implementing a global cap and trade system becomes a more realistic prospect because developing countries will have access to effective technologies. In the meantime, the world could learn from the regional European carbon market what works and what doesn't work.

History will record that the COP-10 Climate Change Convention is where it was first widely recognized that the Kyoto Protocol is a dead end. And where humanity chose to embark on a high-tech path toward confronting whatever challenges any future global warming may present.

Reason Magazine - The Kyoto Protocol is Dead

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"If capitalism had never existed, any honest humanitarian should have been struggling to invent it. But when you see men struggling to evade its existence, to misrepresent its nature, and to destroy its last remnants - you may be sure that whatever their motives, love for man is not one of them." - Ayn Rand, Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal

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Oh Kyoto is not dead-but I agree if they do not sign to do their part they are losers and should have economic sanctions on them in the next round. Maybe they want to be behind the world in science and moral leadership-it is everchanging we will see what 2012 will bring.

http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/lob...tml#post260803

GLABALONEY IS FEMINISM GONE EGO TESTICAL

IGNORE THAT ALGORE

THE AQUARIAN CONSPIRACY

The crisis of environmentalism has been developed as a means to bring about a one-world government: "Through a skillful wedding of socialism, New Age Pantheism and a manufactured climate of despair over a 'dying planet', these powerful individuals (David Rockefeller and Edmund de Rothschild) are creating a climate of fear which will see mankind not only accept, but demand, a one-world government to deliver us from environmental apocalypse. This one-world government will, of course, be the capstone of their planned New World Order. "In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill," declared members of the Club of Rome in a sweeping 1991 report on global governance. "All these dangers are caused by human intervention . . . The real enemy, then, is humanity itself."

In the Summer of 1991 Tal Brooke quoted Brock Chisolm, director of the UN World Health Organization in SCP Journal: "To achieve world government, it is necessary to remove from the minds of men their individualism, loyalty to family traditions, national patriotism, and religious dogmas."

Al Gore, who wrote a book to spread a similar message, said, "We must make rescue of the environment the central organizing principle for civilization." In Earth in the Balance, he calls for a "worldwide education program" and a "panreligious perspective" based on "the wisdom distilled by all faiths."

In 1993, Vice President Al Gore also established the National Religious Partnership for the Environment -- with its offices also located at the Cathedral. The Partnership is composed of the U.S. Catholic Conference, the National Council of Churches, the Evangelical Environmental Network, and the Consultation of Jewish Life and the Environment -- and has received a multimillion-dollar commitment from The Rockefeller Foundation and others to fund a major ecumenical/eco-spiritual broadside aimed at churchgoers. Every Roman Catholic Church in America will soon be the object of ruling class largesse. Laurence Rockefeller is also said to have assisted the publication of The Coming of the Cosmic Christ by former Dominican priest turned New Age Episcopalian Matthew Fox.

The Royal Institute of International Affairs used the life-time work of Aldous Huxley and Bulwer-Lytton as its blueprint to bring about a state where mankind will no longer have wills of their own in the One World Government-New World Order of the fast-approaching New Dark Age. Huxley said: "In many societies at many levels of civilization, attempts have been made to fuse drug intoxication with God intoxication. In ancient Greece, for example, ethyl alcohol had its place in the established religions. Dionysus, Bacchus, as he was often called, was a true divinity. Complete prohibition of chemical changes can be decreed but cannot be enforced."

Homosexual drug-addict and City of London agent, Aldous Huxley, introduced LSD into the USA on behalf of the clandestine Tavistock Institute, said to be responsible for the Port Arthur Massacre.

So much of what 'man' has thought and done has, as we have just read, been folly. However, God, Whom these 'intellectuals' have left out of the equation, promised us a prophet and a way to escape the destruction being wrought by such carnal men

IS HOMOSEXUALLITY CARNAL

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