School Vouchers

rob · #21 (**permalink**) 09-17-2006, 09:23 AM

Dom1 here is a link I found that explains in detail why the democrats refuse to support school vouchers.

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/09/07/Co..._divided.shtml

Dom1 · #22 (**permalink**) 09-17-2006, 10:05 AM

Thanks Rob. This article seems to say that it is because of the NEA lobby that has unwavoring support for the Democrats.

The thing is, vouchers can be used to move from one public school to another. In Washington DC it might not matter because maybe all of the public school are bad, but it would make a difference in other areas of the country. This is an initiative to help out poor kids by the Republicans and it is turned around to say that the Republicans are abondoning poor kids in public schools. It isn't true. I don't care how much money you pour into the public schools, it isn't going to fix the problem.

rob · #23 (**permalink**) 09-17-2006, 10:38 AM

Dom1, I think that to fix the school systems in this country is going to require parental involvement. I have read that some schools don't want this at all. Does your school allow for this involvment?

Dom1 · #24 (**permalink**) 09-17-2006, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob

Dom1, I think that to fix the school systems in this country is going to require parental involvement. I have read that some schools don't want this at all. Does your school allow for this involvment?

It allows for parental involvement, but almost to a point where it is bad. The parents here are very involved, and it is good. However, involvement and knowing the best way to educate the kids are two different things. The parent involvement I don't like is influencing the amount of discipline that the administraters are allowed to use. When I was in Missouri the principal used to jump out of helicopters in the army and was one bad old dude when he wanted to be. Best principal I have ever worked with. He was not afraind to discipline anyone, including teachers. Parents knew they had very little influence with this man, he did things his way which were more often than not the right way regardless of what people thought. He even kicked his own kid out of school for three days for a violation of the dress code. He is also one of the smartest men I have ever met. He could have done almost anything, he decided to be an educater.

By the way Rob, he was very proud to be from Oklahoma.

rob · #25 (**permalink**) 09-17-2006, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom1

It allows for parental involvement, but almost to a point where it is bad. The parents here are very involved, and it is good. However, involvement and knowing the best way to educate the kids are two different things. The parent involvement I don't like is influencing the amount of discipline that the administraters are allowed to use. When I was in Missouri the principal used to jump out of helicopters in the army and was one bad old dude when he wanted to be. Best principal I have ever worked with. He was not afraind to discipline anyone, including teachers. Parents knew they had very little influence with this man, he did things his way which were more often than not the right way regardless of what people thought. He even kicked his own kid out of school for three days for a violation of the dress code. He is also one of the smartest men I have ever met. He could have done almost anything, he decided to be an educater.

By the way Rob, he was very proud to be from Oklahoma.

Dom1, sounds like a great man and as you stated he was an Okie

Sam · #26 (**permalink**) 09-17-2006, 11:58 AM

Dom I will have to look into the Ohio education voucher initiative you spoke of. I read "The Columbus dispatch"online" because that is my home state and I have many nieces and nephews in the school system.

I really cannot say if I would be for it or against it. I never just jump to one party on an issue but try to learn about it. I know because of my outrage at the Bush administration I am labeled a liberal on this forum but in the past I have voted R more than D and I consider myself a centrist. I want truth and do not just take a side of an issue to march in line with the blind followers of one side or another.

Keep in mind within each party individuals are as complex or simple as individuals on this forum.

oceanbreeze · #27 (**permalink**) 09-17-2006, 01:38 PM

Dom: I would vote for school vouchers. It helps kids that are in bad neighborhoods, sometimes not to the fault of the parents. A struggling single parent shouldn't be penalized because they can't afford to live in the better school districts. We are letting kids that have potential slip through the cracks. Most private schools do have scholarships now. As I've said before this is the first time my kids have been in public school, although there are differences, I'm pretty happy. My daughter's middle school principal is a retired Army Colonel and runs the school with an iron fist, which makes it a better school. I do believe that over-parent involvement does become political and causes problems within the schools. I do volunteer in the elementary and middle schools, so I've been able to see it first hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom1

I think the Democratic leadership and many Democratic voters missed the boat on this issue. Do you know who school vouchers would help? It would help kids who do not have enough money to pay to go to another school. Not just private school, but the vouchers can be used to pay for tuition at public schools outside their district. Without vouchers a kid with very little money can't afford to pay tuition at a public or private school. The people who are against this the most are the rich white families with school aged children, and I don't believe they are the Democratic base.

I'll use an estimate combining a couple of the schools I have been at. Let's say the school gets $6500 per student it has enrolled (for those of you who don't know, schools get money allotted per student). If a school was so bad that many kids used vouchers to pay for tuition somewhere else it would maybe force a school to change the way they do things to keep students who want to learn from leaving. The school vouchers are made up of property taxes which would normally be going to the school in the district. Instead, you take that allotted money and give it to the school your child is attending. You are still paying the same amount.

The argument that private schools want this is nuts. Private schools actually turn students away. Any of them that are any good don't have a problem with enrollment. With vouchers a poor or lower middle class student could actually go to one of these schools. The fact of the matter is that for the most part, private schools are better. Without vouchers some kids are left at a distinct disadvantage as they cannot afford tuition at a private school or at a public school which does a better job of educating their students.

I would like to hear what the forum members think about school vouchers and why it is a partisan issue. It definately helps out many poor and middle class families get their child a better education and I don't see why it is a partisan issue. Shouldn't both parties get on board with helping out these kids?

cat's meow · #28 (**permalink**) 09-17-2006, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom1

Agreed with everything you said, but I still am looking for an answer as to why the Democrats don't support vouchers. It helps poor and minority students. Why are they so dead set against this? Do you think it is because they get a lot of financial support from unions who don't want this? I really want to know the answer. I would like to hear from anyone who doesn't think voucher are a good idea and why they think they aren't.

You answered your own question.

The national union has a platform against vouchers and the locals go lockstep to what the national wants. Yes, this is a weakness that perpetuates bad things within the teaching ranks. Teachers will not work against the things that are against their own self interest because of the perception of losing ground. The the union likes to make you think you are totally helpless without them, many districts have even allowed the 'automatic' signing up of a teacher when they get hired. You could almost equate it to the way the NRA views things and how they stand; DON'T GIVE ANY GROUND AT ALL!

I am not in a union (neither higher ed of AF of Musicians), in the South we are in 'right to work' country so that basically takes the legs out from under any unions. Unions have little to no power here expect for a chosen few that are power full ntationally; the power then flows South (the $ that is).

Dom, for good reason you are not in the union and I do not blame you. If you ever have any problems with administration coming after you or other teachers you will absolutely need the union to support you. I am not making this up and it does happen, I have seen it several times were teachers have had file a serious district and union grievence against an administrator and this NEVER makes the news.

Sam · #29 (**permalink**) 09-17-2006, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rob

Dom1 here is a link I found that explains in detail why the democrats refuse to support school vouchers.

http://www.sptimes.com/2003/09/07/Co..._divided.shtml

That was a good link Rob. I did research just on the Ohio issue. Dom you seemed to imply Democrats are united on this issue but the 6 articles I saw (admittedly al the same state) state they are divided on the issue.

I think it would like a good solution but could really endorse it unless better informed. It will spark me to read about it in the news journals when I see it written about it.

Dom1 · #30 (**permalink**) 09-17-2006, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cat's meow

Dom, for good reason you are not in the union and I do not blame you.

I am actually in the union now, I just don't pay dues which will be given to political parties. It took some work to finally get the forms, and was questioned as to why I would want to do it, but I finally got my dues lowered by not contributing to political parties.