You mistake this for a debate wolf as many libs do. Spanking in your eyes is abuse well then you have never experienced abuse I have let me tell you a spanking is not abuse. You ask people what happened when they lied,stole or talked back in the old days(the mid to early 80's on back). They were told it was wrong and why it was wrong and it was backed up with an ass whippen. Hell are you blind how many comedians talk about it and you talk to people about things you didn't do when you were a kid because they would get a whoopen. See now you negate the fact that kids and society in all was better mannered,repectfull to others and elders even ones they did not know. Something that still goes on in the south. I have seen your form of child rearing BS and what it produces I was stationed in California and lived there for several years. Damn you are a fool if you don't think the kids are doing the crap behind your back. Kids talking back to their parents some telling them to fuck off in public etc etc. Ya I never saw one kid in front of me in california tell the clerk thank you sir or thank you maam like they do and hell me as an adult does here. You can teach morals and values and understanding for those and is vital but it must be backed up with dicipline. Fact kids are just out of control these days so your arguement of reasoning with a child when you are the adult is a joke. Generations of respectful kids billions prove you wrong the fact of how kids act these days using your way is a cluster fuck out of control is even more proof. Ask adults on here IIIIII'm asking older posters on her why they didn't act up in school. Answer I would get the paddle and another ass whippen when I got home NOT WELL MOMMY ASKED ME NICELY AND TOLD ME WHY IT WAS GOOD NOT TO. SOME kids you can get away with that hell I will rarely have to do that I hope but not to do so when it is needed because you see it as abuse is ludicris. You have no Idea what abuse is that is proven by your statement and the fact I have experienced it and my sister.

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When you came into this world you cried.
Live your life so that when you die.
The world cries. the shadow

See wolf this is what I'm talking about the wisdom of a parent handed down and applied to the situtation. Now I take it GRACGW that if he prefered restiction and such then you would have given him the whippen not a beating but a whoopen. If you ask me you made out hope I do because if they will respond to things other than a whippen that is fantastic that is what we as parents wish for. But the fact is not all kids respond to that especialy strong willed ones. But to say a whippen is abuse is insane.

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When you came into this world you cried.
Live your life so that when you die.
The world cries. the shadow

TY, yep shadow, when he was around 6/7 he got his share of spankings...he was a handfull as most boys are. It's been a long time since he's has had a spankin from me or his dad, but school is a different story no, he's not above getting a paddling. They are required to call me first, but this is just a tactic, I always wanted him to know that I approved it!!!

It's also an age thing. The older they get, the more attached they get to "things" as well as their social lives giving us the leverage...

What state are you in they still allow paddling that is refreshing to hear. Ya you have to pull all the tricks out of your bag. I remember we use to think my dad was psychic found out later he just snuck outside and peaked in our window then came back in the house called us in the living room and ask us the question. Did you do what I told you not to do, you know I see all then he would describe how what when etc. we were doing and it freaked us out. We would be in the woods alone at times messing around and drop a piece of trash look at each other ya we better pick it up dad will know if we don't. I plan to use that and others because hey they worked until they get old enough to figure it out but by then the values and respect is instiled in them it becomes who they are. I just don't get this reasoning with an 8 year old child when he's there in public telling the parent to fuck off in plain english. And the mom try's to reason with him NOW johnny that is not polite and unacceptable blah blah blah as the kid continues to tell her to get out of his face and fuck off. WOW does it take a bus to convince a person to change tactics what your doing is failing miserably, that is an abuse in a way to me because the child is not only a burden to the parents do to their failure to act but becomes the unruley children that deny other students valuable class time etc. It is a shame because it is not the kids fault to me it's the parents.

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When you came into this world you cried.
Live your life so that when you die.
The world cries. the shadow

you do not have to hit your kids to teach them
grounding works, time-out works, revoking privledges works.
naturally if you already started to hit your kids, they probably won't respond well to other forms of discipline

its true that all kids respond differently. some need to be talked to more, some need to be grounded longer. some kids you can trust and some you can't.
there are mothers who left their 15yr stay out till 9 but their 13 year old out till 10, because the 13 year old behaves better and will be more responcible.

spanking is not discipline. its punishment.

the issue is consistancy and teaching. if you are inconsistant your children will never behave. and if you don't teach them right from wrong- they will simply learn to hide their misdeeds from you.

I wasn't hit. I was disciplined. I was taught right from wrong. I never stole, never lied, never was arrested, no drugs, and good grades and behavior at school.
I didn't behave in order to avoid getting in trouble- or like kids who are spanked, I wasn't conditioned to fear pain and adjust my actions to avoid it.
I did the right thing, because it was the right thing to do.

my friends and cousins who were spanked learned to hide what ever wrong they did. they didn't care about misbehaving and what their actions did to others- they cared about not getting hit.

I'm in TN & my dad used to do exactly the same thing. I really believed my parents had eyes in the back, ya know?? LOL

No one is saying that you "have" to spank your kids to teach them. Listen, to each his own, it is our rights as parents...

And everyone has stories of why some people have no business spanking children. I have agreed w/ you on some of this & I have agreed to disagree on some, really your chasing your own tail....

Here we go the perfect child syndrome you sound like my mom until we got older and my grandmother told us a much different story. Your right it is punishment what the hell do you think happens when you get out in society when you break the law they punish you they don't talk to you. So your telling me that the kid in the store that I saw and herd with my own eyes my nieces and nephews from my sister and a couple of brothers and there kids are way out of control you would continue to just talk to them and put them in there room. Wich when they do they just sneak out because like in my sisters case they know she does not spank ever. You are a rarity in a huge society. Let me tell you something my 15 month old daughter would eat you up and spit you out like she does her grandma and my wife. It is not about giving a child pain that is sadistic. Take my daughter when I pop her on the bottom is about as hard as I pet the dog the thing is she hates it and the tone of my voice when I correct her. 100% of it is she knows I am not pleased with her behavior I can just look at her many times and just the tone I use she stops and breaks down and cries. She is stuborn as a mule though and fears nothing you have to be on your toes with her and consistent. Some times time out works and I often use it for short periods because her attention span is minute. Oh and by the way time out grounding they are all punishment duh. I will tell you another thing if you were raising boys like me and my brothers you would have gone through hell because at first my dad did not want to spank at all and we ran over and behind him plain and simple. Till that one day my grandma had a talk with him and we all took a trip to the barn and got tore up. I don't know what my grandma said to him but after while we started to look at my dad differently with respect and a high apreciation of the fact that he realy genuinly did not want to whoop us but he was going to do what he needed. Now when we got taken by my mom well when we got taken from her by social services for abuse and placed back with my dad we had an even greater apreciation and clear understanding between a whoopen and a beating. Let me end with saying one we were taken from school because the gym teacher saw my sisters back with welts from neck too ankles. Another thing as a child I feared my mom never in my life did I fear my dad I feared disapointing him or the fact that I messed up bad enough he had to give me a whoopen. You could see it in his eyes

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When you came into this world you cried.
Live your life so that when you die.
The world cries. the shadow

Yeah, I heard FedUpAmerican and Migueld like to paddle each other. Look how they turned out.

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I can relate to that, also from a parental point of view. I would tell my kids, I am your father and fathers know everything. One of my kids skipped school one day and called me pretending they were using the phone from school. I called her right back since the number popped up on my cell phone but got no answer. Later that day a friend told me that they had seen my VW Beetle at a service station. I went to the service station and sure enough the phone number on the pay phone was where she had placed the call. When we both got home I told her I knew she had called me from the pay phone because I was the father and I knew everything. I never had any trouble from that child anymore

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Its better to have fussed and crabbed then never to have fussed at all - Lucy