We are constantly told that America's educational system is inferior to various European and Asian systems. As proof of this inferiority we are shown test results in science and math of American students vs foreign students.

One issue never addressed is that American schools are perhaps the most universal in the world. By this I mean that students in American schools are all taught at the same level. It is assumed we are all equal in ability and everyone is required to take math and science courses. This means that some percentage of students are doomed to failure as future mathematicians and scientist. Instead of training them to be plumbers or electricans we allow them to fail. This number is then represented in the total educational stastistics of the entire universe of students. Ergo, our numbers appear less than stellar.

European schools on the other hand are far more chosey about who gets into upper level classrooms. Only the more talented students take advanced math or science courses. Those who are not future research scientist are put in tech schools or other venues more apt to adequately prepare them for the future. However, since only those graduating from the upper level schools are included in the statistics then naturally the math and science scores will prove higher.

Now, I don't know if the constant bleating of how bad we are from the left is purposefully not taking the differences into account but I do know the statistics are flawed.

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Its better to have fussed and crabbed then never to have fussed at all - Lucy

No, it is just a counterpoint to the rights trumpeting how we are "the greatest" in everything solely because this is America....

So, now that we got the left/right bashing out of the way, would you like to actually discuss this, or do you want to do some more lib/con bashing first?

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"If you're going to tell people the truth, be funny or they'll kill you." -- Billy Wilder

"Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied." -- Otto Von Bismark

I don't think you are entering this with the right attitude so what would be the point. I ask a simple question and you immediately accuse me of something, I know not what.

I will just wait for the next poster's response thank you

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Its better to have fussed and crabbed then never to have fussed at all - Lucy

Not really Nathan.....ya coulda left that out, but didn't.

so quit feigning surprise when the left calls you on it.

You're sounding like a tokie or bad moth

__________________
"If you're going to tell people the truth, be funny or they'll kill you." -- Billy Wilder

"Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied." -- Otto Von Bismark

I don't want to discuss this with you, sorry. You had your chance but instead you just want to get into a left right pissing contest. Piss away but I won't respond

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Its better to have fussed and crabbed then never to have fussed at all - Lucy

Too funny.....I just responded in kind, then asked my own question...

Dish it out but can't take it back eh?

Oh well....can't expect much other than entertainment from here anyway....

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"If you're going to tell people the truth, be funny or they'll kill you." -- Billy Wilder

"Never believe anything in politics until it has been officially denied." -- Otto Von Bismark

It's a good point. But these tests show the same way across the ages, and in Euro and Asian (and other) school systems, they don't start that weeding process 'til ages 12-14 or so.

It's clear that we may be testing our muddy middle against their sharp top-enders in the older grades, but we still tend to score abysmally across the age groups.

As for their vs. our systems in general: they do these rigorous series of tests at the middle school (our) level. Now, in some ways that's good, in others, in a FREE society...not so much.

Why? Well, tell me Nathan, when you were 12 had you already mapped out the rest of your life...knew that you wanted to be a butcher, baker, candlestick maker?

It has some good points, sure...but I didn't attend college full time until I was 35. At which point I scored straight As in my regular classes as well as the Honors classes I minored in...at 12 or 13? Ds and Fs and not very good in shop etc.

So, under the gymnasium system I would've been "tracked" to something like the exciting world of food services.

Given, there are lots of kids at that age who DO have it all figured out, and in any system others will fall through the cracks, I just feel the gymnasium system would tend to cause more, in our otherwise free society (remember that places like Germany, France, even England to some extent and to say nothing of places like Japan and Korea, are far more regimented than are we) to fall through those cracks.

And we don't need the schools to train restaraunt dishwashers...that's why we have illegals!

Tokie

Just offer your Child lots of different things to do so they get an idea what general field they like to study. By the time they are 16-17 they should have a clue what kind of job they want to study for in College or do after high school even.

Tests just get the schools there money. They really do nothing for the child.

__________________
"It is the Right of the People to alter or abolish the Government"
Declaration of Independence
"Never trouble another for what you can do for yourself."
Thomas Jefferson
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand."
Milton Friedman

The above said, I agree that our current system is too "college bound." Meaning that most HS teachers think of themselves as sort of college instructors w/o portfolio. Meanwhile, they are "teaching" kids in 10th grade to make collages as a term paper for literature....

Talk to tradesmen (unless you are one...that will look funny). They will tell you they can't get US kids to take jobs like roofing, framing, drywalling, even plumbing and electrical. That's PART of why illegals are hired (not the whole picture by any means, tho). The schools, viewing themselves as junior college, only teach with college in mind. They do a piss-poor job of it, to be sure, but since it makes the teachers feel good to believe they are just a notch below a college prof., that's what they do, and screw kids who are clearly have no aptitude or interest in higher education...what the kids need is not paramount.

The schools are a jobs program for "educators" (most of whom would be washing dishes if they weren't in that "profession"), not a job-preparation program for the kids. If you are a kid who simply is not going to go on to college, you are ignored, marginalized and made to feel useless in schools that have done away with "shop" and other such jobs-preparation classes.

The rationale (rationalizing) for this is that "these jobs are not what Americans do any more..." which is a self-fullfilling feedback loop: if you don't train anyone to DO "these jobs" then um, yeah...nobody will be doing them.

Duh.

But since teachers at the high school level are the most important issue here, how they "feel" about what they do is most important, and most "feel" that they should be "preparing" kids for colllege. They don't DO that, either, but as long as they "feel" that they are, hey that's the important thing.

A better approach would be to take a page fro satv an turn the calendar back to at least 1960, reintroduce "shop" to the schools at 7th-8th grade (the same age they'd otherwise be weeded out to these professions in a gymnasium system) and offer progressively higher levels of such classes in high school.

Two plusses: this would allow kids who are not suited to higher education a chance to try other things, get some book-learnin' about drafting, or metal work, or woodwork, or auto repair under their belts and see whether a trade might not be the way for them. It would also permit us (America) to return to training AMERICANS to do "the jobs Americans won't do!!!"

But of course, the first thing you'd need to do ahead of this is crush the teacher's union that would be absolutely opposed to this...such programs are expensive, taking money away from what's REALLY needed...that second English Lit teacher who'll prepare kids for college by having them make collages.

Tokie

To be honest, if my child came to me and said I do not want to go to college I would be fine with that. I would however make sure she had a plan to make a decent living for herself in some kind of trade or get into a decent entry level position somewhere that offered advancement and decent pay.

Remember, A child pushes back when you push them too hard into a field. It is best for them to develop interests and allow them to move into a career field associated with something they are interested in.

I still want her to do well in math, science, history and such, but in the end. All I want her to do is to be able to make a decent living for herself when she becomes an adult.

Whether that would be a doctor or other field in the sciences. Or a freaking legal secretary.

I guess what needs to be said is you can not force a child's interest. Even if you can force a child into something they will hold resentment. Just make sure they are able to learn some skills to get a decent job, college or no. Cause in today's economy, having a good job is pretty much all you can shoot for.

__________________
"It is the Right of the People to alter or abolish the Government"
Declaration of Independence
"Never trouble another for what you can do for yourself."
Thomas Jefferson
"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand."
Milton Friedman