Originally Posted by Tokenconservative

Ours is indeed a very confused system.

I mean to say that today, because high school teachers view themselves (for their own personal psycho-emotional protection--and this has become built into the system) as a sort of junior college professor, they are unable to teach to kids who are not going on to college. Period.

Now, one would hope that at least means that they would be teaching the kids stuff that would lead them to college.

Nope. That's why you'll have 10th grade Lit classes in which the term "paper" is turning a scene from Romeo & Juliet into a Hip-Hope bit or making a "poster" about the play. These are 15-16 yr old young men an women. How many posters did you do for term papers in college?

Yes, the Euro approach has it's bennies...my concern is for well, people like me. Because I suck at math and because my folks were fairly uninvolved in my schooling, I was "tracked" at a very young age into the "dummy" track. This was essentially what special ed is, today.

Of course, that Permanent Record...ecord...cord...followed me (3rd grade on) and when I'd demonstrate in classes that I was really good at--English (writing), history, some of the sciences, art and music--HOW good I was at these things, the teachers had no idea in hell what to DO with me. I ended up, usually, sitting in a corner doing my "own thing" with virtually no guidance at all. When, at age 12 or 13, you are a better writer than your teacher, the system (absent LOTS of parental involvement...and my parents had been told I was near-retearded) is not set up to handle something like that, and individual teachers, typically, with 20-30 other kids to deal with in each class, have NO idea how to deal with it.

No....unlike all those Hallmark and Kodak commercials, I never encountered "that teacher" who "made a difference." Mine were all sub-literate buffoons who could barely scratch their own asses much less teach ME anything. I had a few who did make fairly lame attempts (and two who actully STOLE a piece of my art and a piece of my writing and put their own names on them...), but the entire package in my case was not particularly college-bound.

I went to college when I was 35--AFTER I was a published writer (science/tech journals, a few fiction pieces--of course telling you all this gives my detractors in here lots of childish mudclods..."a writer!? HA! Look at his spelling!!" but they are mindless, kneejerk reactionaries...so, meh.). I remember my English 102 (research paper) "professor" who was utterly unable to comprehend my 40 pg term paper (on its way to publication in an international tech trade journal)...he just slashed an A across the top...did not even bother opening the thing...and why should he? He knew it was already being published...

So, the question in my mind is what do you do with kids who at 12 or 14 don't know what they "want to do with the rest of their life"? I had no idea at 12 or 14 what was even available.

The Brits ran into this problem and they had untold numbers of "pipe fitters" and "masons" on the dole, unable to work but a job or two a year because their country was overrun with people in these "trades" having tested low at 12 or 14.

Is there a fix-all for this? No. But our current system clearly is not working because it operates in the OTHER direction, but not "for the kids," rather it does so, so "teachers" will feel as if they are "education professionals." Fixt THAT and you fix the schools. Bring "shop" back to the middle schools and let kids at that age see what interests them. My older brother was able, through electronics shop to discover/grow his skills into becoming one of the nations foremost authorities on a type of computer programming. My younger brother discovered his knack for "fixing" things and is now the top tech where he works.

I was more intellectual than either, but because I sucked at math, the system deemed me "dummy" and that's how they tracked me back in the day. Today, they would ignore my brothers' skills and try to force them into college directions neither had any interest in or skills toward. Today, I'd probably make out pretty well.

But the kids who have no aptitude for intellectual pursuits? The sytem, protecting the egos of teachers says: screw 'em!

Tokie

Originally Posted by GAYDAR

Spoken in the faux, revisionist, reactionary, and anti intellect mode that we have come to expect from you !
You are nothing if not consistent...Tokie
Consistently dumbed down and anti intellectual, but consistent none the less.

The problem with our schools in not Teachers, the problem is that mouth breathing reactionaries strive to reduce public education to the lowest common denominator, in the name of “local control”
When the guy who makes duplicate keys for 6 dollars and hour at the local true value, sits on the board of education and dictates curriculum and holds the check book, it is no wonder Johnny can’t read.

Let teachers teach without the local bible thumpers and village idiots looking over their shoulder and give them the tools they need and the pay to keep quality teachers from leaving the profession, and attract new quality teachers, and all will be well.
This is not an NEA or a Liberal concept, this is hard core conservative free market theory. You know, the theory you claim to agree with.
Either capitalism works or it doesnt, you cant have it both ways

Originally Posted by GAYDAR

Spoken in the faux, revisionist, reactionary, and anti intellect mode that we have come to expect from you !
You are nothing if not consistent...Tokie
Consistently dumbed down and anti intellectual, but consistent none the less.

The problem with our schools in not Teachers, the problem is that mouth breathing reactionaries strive to reduce public education to the lowest common denominator, in the name of “local control”
When the guy who makes duplicate keys for 6 dollars and hour at the local true value, sits on the board of education and dictates curriculum and holds the check book, it is no wonder Johnny can’t read.

Let teachers teach without the local bible thumpers and village idiots looking over their shoulder and give them the tools they need and the pay to keep quality teachers from leaving the profession, and attract new quality teachers, and all will be well.
This is not an NEA or a Liberal concept, this is hard core conservative free market theory. You know, the theory you claim to agree with.
Either capitalism works or it doesnt, you cant have it both ways

Originally Posted by rob

I am all in favor of letting the teachers teach but parents still should have a say in their childrens education.

Originally Posted by GAYDAR

No where in my post did I mention the federal government. As you are so fond of doing, you attack an arguement that was never made, and build a poorly consturcted strawman

What I am suggesting is exactly what I said. Let educators educate.

Most things are not subjective, 1 plus 1 equals two in the most liberal or the most conservative household, and yes, contraray to what the wacky right so loves to claim, students in the south, west, north, east, and everywhere else, DO need to learn math, science (not fairy tales) history (not racist eurocentric bullshit) and yes, (OH do i dare say it ? ) a second language in order to succeed in the 21st century.

If we want to properly educate chicldren curriculum needs to be standardized and designed by the educated, not by the voluntary ignorant. It is the parents job to raise their kids and install values, but that has NOTHING to do with their education. Colleges and employers are not interested in ones history of snake handling, talking in tongues, or the size of ones gun collection. They want people who are properly educated and well rounded.

And again, in the spirit of hard core CONSERVATIVE FREE MARKET CAPITALISM, pay and benifits need to be designed to attract and keep the best candidates for the job

I mean, you do believe in capitalism, dont you ?

Originally Posted by satv365

They should have the say. Teaching is a service. If I don't like the service (quality of teaching and educational curriculum) I can and should be able to take my business (my child's tuition), elsewhere.

Originally Posted by CrankyYankee

There are private schools.