Tokie
Let me understand this. You are saying US schools do not do as well as European schools because we teach everyone at the same level - college bound. Isn't this a factor of our belief in "equality of outcome' vs "equality of opportunity"? European schools recognize not everyone is a math whiz and don't try to create little Einsteins out of every student. In fact in one paper I read regarding universal education in secondary schools the case was made the American system was the worst system because it left those with no aptitude for math or science uneducated.

As far as the question someone posed did I know what I wanted to do at age 12, hell I am not sure I know what I want to do at age 63 . Seriously, at age 12 I was already an independent business man. I ran a paper route with about 100 customers, I sold papers in front of a grocery store (this was before paper boxes everywhere) I also organized several neighborhood kids into a lawn mowing service. I would sell the service and the others would actually cut the grass. Did I know I wanted to be in the transportation field? No, but I did know I wanted to work for myself. My son, who works in the computer science field, built a crystal radio when he was 8 years old. His 8th grade science project was a working robot. He knew from the age of 10 what he wanted to do with the rest of his life.

I think there are many highly motivated people who know what they want to do at a younger age then we give them credit for

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Truth is math and science are the only keys to Education. Public Schooling fails to realize this. They throw them in remedial classes where they lag behind at least 4 grades on every subject...


I would actually support a plan to allow children to specialize in one field of study in School, rather than having to know everything about everything. This is why children hate school, and do not want to learn. Because face it. Some people suck at math and are good mechanics, or suck at biology but can do math like a asian kid...

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My point exactly. I am absolutely lost in math. I don't know a cosign from a tangent. However, I can sell just about anything and have very good people skills. Don't need math for that except to understand how much my profit will be . Which, by the way, is something that is rarely taught anymore

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I don't think that children should ever be taught based on a level playing field. This is moranic at best.

I have three very different children & all of them required something different. Had I been asked to test my "C" child, to maybe put her in a class that was working more at her pace, I'd have said yes in a heartbeat. The alternative for some students is resource & how humiliating is this for a kid?

I know for a fact from the few schools that my own attended that students were offered electives for special interests through grades 5-8.

My now freshman is taking a 4 year course in the field she is persuing & such courses are offered for a variety of career paths (tech or univeristy).

I guess it depends on the state?

When, I look at my own dismal public education that we need to allow for the late bloomers. Science and math bored me to tears but reading and writing always intrested me. I read all the books that were available in each grade in grade school. The US spends more money per student than any other country. I have four children and 2 were college material and the other 2 were tech school people and I was happy that they found out these facts for themselves.

I told my children that as long as the field of work or study is honorable they can be sucessful. Hell one of my sons is a lawyer and supports Edwards who he knows personaly.

I am discouraged that more of our children aren't exelling in the sciences or engineering and maybe that is what we have to do is make these fields eciting or worthwhile.

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An informed voter scares the Goverment lackeys.

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Your socialism blinds you to much, including this.

Nobody on the right is claiming our public schools are "the greatest." We do know they COULD be (and once were), but today they are a wholly-owned subsidiar of Socialist Amerika, Inc., courtesy of the leftist NEA and the leftists who believe the schools are wonderful laboratories in which to experiment with means of inculcating and indeed brainwashing kids with the "right" types of "thinking"...your type: leftist, mindless, blinkered, parroting, platitudinous, lockstep thinking in which they need only tell you "do this," and you do.

Anyone who does not believe the left controls the public schools, if he/she is a conservative is stupid. Anyone on the left who makes this laughable claim is either an entirely ignorant lockstepper or a liar.

Which are you, Heckler?

Tokie

Ours is indeed a very confused system.

I mean to say that today, because high school teachers view themselves (for their own personal psycho-emotional protection--and this has become built into the system) as a sort of junior college professor, they are unable to teach to kids who are not going on to college. Period.

Now, one would hope that at least means that they would be teaching the kids stuff that would lead them to college.

Nope. That's why you'll have 10th grade Lit classes in which the term "paper" is turning a scene from Romeo & Juliet into a Hip-Hope bit or making a "poster" about the play. These are 15-16 yr old young men an women. How many posters did you do for term papers in college?

Yes, the Euro approach has it's bennies...my concern is for well, people like me. Because I suck at math and because my folks were fairly uninvolved in my schooling, I was "tracked" at a very young age into the "dummy" track. This was essentially what special ed is, today.

Of course, that Permanent Record...ecord...cord...followed me (3rd grade on) and when I'd demonstrate in classes that I was really good at--English (writing), history, some of the sciences, art and music--HOW good I was at these things, the teachers had no idea in hell what to DO with me. I ended up, usually, sitting in a corner doing my "own thing" with virtually no guidance at all. When, at age 12 or 13, you are a better writer than your teacher, the system (absent LOTS of parental involvement...and my parents had been told I was near-retearded) is not set up to handle something like that, and individual teachers, typically, with 20-30 other kids to deal with in each class, have NO idea how to deal with it.

No....unlike all those Hallmark and Kodak commercials, I never encountered "that teacher" who "made a difference." Mine were all sub-literate buffoons who could barely scratch their own asses much less teach ME anything. I had a few who did make fairly lame attempts (and two who actully STOLE a piece of my art and a piece of my writing and put their own names on them...), but the entire package in my case was not particularly college-bound.

I went to college when I was 35--AFTER I was a published writer (science/tech journals, a few fiction pieces--of course telling you all this gives my detractors in here lots of childish mudclods..."a writer!? HA! Look at his spelling!!" but they are mindless, kneejerk reactionaries...so, meh.). I remember my English 102 (research paper) "professor" who was utterly unable to comprehend my 40 pg term paper (on its way to publication in an international tech trade journal)...he just slashed an A across the top...did not even bother opening the thing...and why should he? He knew it was already being published...

So, the question in my mind is what do you do with kids who at 12 or 14 don't know what they "want to do with the rest of their life"? I had no idea at 12 or 14 what was even available.

The Brits ran into this problem and they had untold numbers of "pipe fitters" and "masons" on the dole, unable to work but a job or two a year because their country was overrun with people in these "trades" having tested low at 12 or 14.

Is there a fix-all for this? No. But our current system clearly is not working because it operates in the OTHER direction, but not "for the kids," rather it does so, so "teachers" will feel as if they are "education professionals." Fixt THAT and you fix the schools. Bring "shop" back to the middle schools and let kids at that age see what interests them. My older brother was able, through electronics shop to discover/grow his skills into becoming one of the nations foremost authorities on a type of computer programming. My younger brother discovered his knack for "fixing" things and is now the top tech where he works.

I was more intellectual than either, but because I sucked at math, the system deemed me "dummy" and that's how they tracked me back in the day. Today, they would ignore my brothers' skills and try to force them into college directions neither had any interest in or skills toward. Today, I'd probably make out pretty well.

But the kids who have no aptitude for intellectual pursuits? The sytem, protecting the egos of teachers says: screw 'em!

Tokie

It does depend on the state, and how completely your state is controlled by the NEA. Mine is a wholly owned subsidiary of the NEA. And our schools reflect that fact by ignoring the needs of students in favor of the needs and desires of "educators."

Tokie

Well Tokie, I can certainly understand why you are a published writer. As far as your detractors are concerned regarding your spelling I do believe if we all were excellent spellers Spell Check would never have been invented. I am a better speller now than when I was in my 20's probably because I use smaller words This is also the reason publishing companies hire proofreaders and editors

My original question, I think, was is the left deliberately undermining the image of the United States by constantly comparing apples and bananas (I like to think outside of the box sometimes )? If we did separate those students with no aptitude for math and science and only counted those who did then how would we compare educationally with Europeans and Asian students?

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Its better to have fussed and crabbed then never to have fussed at all - Lucy