Sam:

I apoligize if your understanding of my post was "pro WalMart" or where celeb shop. You completely missed my point. Perhaps you read only the post addressed to you. I was merely making an observation based on personal experience. I was not puting down your choice to shop as you please.

I too feed a large teenage boy (mine is 6'3"). Not once did I mention any benefit in bulk buying of chemical, trans fat laden foods. Not to say I and my son don't occassionally enjoy junk food treats.

And the line about "even celebs shop at WalMart" was simply to show, that while they don't allow such eyesoars in their communities, they have been known to travel elsewhere to patronize them.

Get a grip!!! I wasn't attacking you........

No need to apaologize or caution me to get a grip. This is AWE and I thought we were discussing something interesting. There is a group of posters who spend a great deal of time worrying about celebrities and just wanted you to be clear I really am not interested in where celebrities shop, their political views or nominating them for political office.

Posters are so touchy about Wal mart. If someone prefers to support local American Businesses they think it is an attack on their Wal Mart shopping. Wal Mart is a successful venture that has made some people quite wealthy and if you want to load your cart with processed food, gadgets etc you can save as much as 20% I have neighbors behind me with 6 children and I see them carrying in multitudes of Wal mart bags every few days. That is their right and their business. If I were buying jumbo bags of processed food I might do the same.

There is nothing wrong with chain shopping. On a rare occasion I will shop Target for gardening tools or household products. My point is choice and what happens when a community chooses to support their local economy and families.

This thread was more on what happens when a city joins together to support locally owned businesses. It is unusual and has made the city prosperous, beautiful , low crime and clean.

Quote Personally I find it more economical and healthier to shop and co op for organic delightful produce and buy free range 4-H produced meat. quote

The 4-H is a club for young people to learn about farming and agricultural techniques. It sponsers kids and encouages them to raise cows, chickens produce etc. Frank Perdue, the founder of Perdue Chickens in Maryland started his business as a result of a 4-H project 60 years ago. 4-H does not market the food produced by these youngsters. Nor does it exclusively encourge organic or so called "free range" meat. (Free range can mean almost anything since there is no regulations concerning the use of the term. Free range could mean that chickens for example that are normally kept in 1x1 cages are allowed to leave those cages for an hour a day to walk around in an enclosed area. The same is true of cattle. The only way to know if you are actually getting "free range" meat products is to know exactly who you are buying from and 4-H sells nothing).

Now as far as choice is concerned, what choice is there when the regulations are devised to keep the Wal-Marts and McDonalds out of an area. I lived in Jacksonville FL not far from Ponte Vedra Fl. Ponte Vedra was an area as Sam describes and the average income was probably much over $200,000.00 per year. People like Bowie Kuhn and James Stockton (real estate fame) and various movie stars had summer homes there. They even got the county to shut down a portion of A1A running right along the ocean front and move it about a half mile inland. The reason given was to protect the road from hurricanes. Within five years million plus dollar condo's were built between the old road and the new road completely blocking the view of the ocean. Where was the threat to the condo's from the hurricanes? Our tax dollars paid to move the road, our tax dollars are paying to insure the condos from hurricane damage. To add insult to injury the residents of those condos want tax payers to maintain the old road (which is closed to everyone except residents of the condo's) because it is still a state road. McDonalds wanted to build a resturant on the new highway and were refused. So, for those people who lived in Palm Valley and were not making the kind of money to allow them to eat every evening at Ruth Crist at $200.00 a pop or shop at the upscale (and only sanctioned) food store "Chef's Market" they had to drive the extra 15 miles into Duval county to be able to afford to continue living in an area they had lived for decades.

I have no use for yuppies who move into an area, change it to the current crop of new age thinking and expect the local taxpapers to fund those changes for them.

I also have no use for those people who think that the only choice should be those they think you should have.

__________________
Its better to have fussed and crabbed then never to have fussed at all - Lucy

Most people do not know this and since there is no regulation sellers can claim they are selling "free ranged" meat and eggs without anyone knowing the difference. Plus, free range actually means not fenced in for cattle, but virtually all cattle are fenced in, and they are still eating the same stuff.

Right, free range also does not mean additive free, it only means the cattle do not spend all of their time in a feed lot. I personally am concerned about the steroids and other chemicals we are injecting into our food supply but I don't think making it impossible for lower income people to find food they can afford is the answer.

As for me, I am lucky in that I grow several vegatables, I get "yard eggs" from a neighbor who I know does not stuff his birds with antibotics and I buy much of my other veggies from local farms and I know how the produce is grown and where it is grown. I have learned to can just about any vegatable grown. I am not a big stickler for "organic" since the fact that its cow shit before you put it in your garden vs a manufactured fertilizer makes no difference to the plant. However, I can do this because I live in the country with farms and farmers all around me. When I lived in Jacksonville Fl it was far cheaper and easier to go to Publix and buy my food. People who live in large cities or have little money cannot afford the luxury of the new age diets

__________________
Its better to have fussed and crabbed then never to have fussed at all - Lucy

I buy directly from the farmers. Free range genrally means the animals are not in feed lots as NF pointed out. It means they may be in a large pastures (30 cows in 10 acres as opposed to 200 cows in 1/2 acre). You are correct the industry is young and so unless you buy directly you cannot be certain .Free range to me does not mean no fences (although that is possible in some states such as mine) it genrally means not inhumane tiny feed lots.I will say in Oregon we have cattle that are allowed to graze on public lands and not fenced at all but that is rare in most states and unrealistic. The end of my road has a cattle grate-because on thousands of acres there are cattle grazing. I bought a 4-H lamb from a neighbor child at church. The 5 lambs sold I could see from my window everyday in a large field. I buy local fruit and vegetables as often as possible from local orchards where I know the owners and that they do not use unecessary pesticides and do hire illegal workers. There are large scale orchards who employ illegals ,use many perticides and then sell to Del Monte who sells it cheaply to Wal mart (you know those little cups of processed mushy fruit). I heard recently both the orchard owner and Del Monte plant were raided for hiring illegals . That is how many foods are processed and sold cheaply. I will say even though wal mart gives you a hell of a deal on little plastic cups of mushy fruit it is still cheaper to buy fresh fruit and cut it us and you actually get some nutirents in the process!I will try to find a link on that actual story on Del Monte because I was out of town when it happened.

I am certain because I buy direct if possible.I know this is difficult for many people -but I live in a agricultural region and know many of the owners. It is easy to find who uses inordinate pesticides, hires illegals and who they sell their products to.

My thread was about supporting your local community as much as possible. It is not anti anything -but a choice that I hope continues. The city I gave an example of is thriving . I gave an example of a chain Olive Garden restaurant as compared to a less expensive fresh food eatery that uses local goods, prepares fresh food harvested by legal Americans.It is less expensive, higher quality, supports a local family who is invested in the community and that is a choice I like.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,281333,00.html


http://money.cnn.com/2003/10/23/news...orker_arrests/


This is just an added note from my previous post- a large local orchard who hires illegals and ships fruit to be processed at Del Monte in Portland who the sells to Wal-mart cheaply was raided. I am not trying to turn this into an illegal immigrant thread. I am just pointing out when you know the people you do business with it is easier to know and understand the business, who they hire and how they conduct business besides putting your dollar back into your community. I think large chains are great on occaision- I just like investing in local american families in my community when I can. If because of this choice a local family makes a decent income as opposed to someone far away making tens of millions that is okay with me. I carefully choose food products and suspect I spend less money then most on high quality food because I do not buy much processed food. I know most of the farmers who supply the co op and I like having that choice. It is nice to have large chains for specific items, but my entire point was choice and investing in ones own community.I mix it up where I shop for goods but when I have a choice I try to buy local and unprocessed by legal workers. Is that a liberal communist socialist satan worshipping terror driven thought? (JK )

What is a 4-H lamb? The 4-H does not produce ANYTHING. 4-H is a club like the Boy Scouts or Big Brothers. It may sponser a project and kids will get together and enter their animals or produce in an agricultural fair or something similar but 4-H does not mean the food was grown organically or any other specific way. It only means the kid did it themselves.

Please Sam, get off this shit the somehow 4-H means the same as organic or sustainable or any of the the new age buzz words you are so fond of.

__________________
Its better to have fussed and crabbed then never to have fussed at all - Lucy

NF- Where in the heck do you come up with you comments? I started a thread about supporting local economies and said nothing about 4-H being certified organic or anything beyond what each student chooses for their project.Try reading the thread.

In 1990 My sister and I drove to Portland to visit her son there. We fell in love with the city and wanted very much to open a bed and breakfast there. We were knocked out by the price. Portland does a good job of discouraging "outsiders" from buying and/or starting a business there, family owned or not. It's a lovely place and quite community oriented, but they make it clear that while they encourage your visit, they do NOT encourage your permanent move. Nephew had to leave because there are so few jobs. We saw a sign somewhere that stated "Welcome to Oregon. Enjoy your visit. Do not move here." something like that. The price of real estate keeps that true.

__________________
Most of the world's crises can be tracked back to the fact that WE HAVE TOO MANY LAWYERS.
---------------------------------------------------
Without women, money would have no meaning......Aristotle Onassis.