There really was a Plan for Iraq

Sam · #11 (**permalink**) 01-17-2007, 01:47 AM

Yes Okham Where did all that money go is a good question

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...522983,00.html

In addition to the missing billions other issues abound ! How much are these initail policies not to mention the missing money costing Americans and making life hell for the Iraqis.As head of the CPA, Bremer moved quickly to draft a series of laws to govern Iraq, which at the time had no constitution, nor legally-constituted government. The new laws of the US occupation authority numbered 100 in all, and were put into effect in April 2004. One of the Orders mandates that no elected Iraqi government will have the power to alter the US-imposed laws. The new laws, or Orders, as they were called, would insure that the economy of Iraq would be remade along lines of a US-mandated ‘free-market’ economic model.

Bremer pushed through more drastic economic changes in one month than the International Monetary Fund managed over three decades in Latin America. Former World Bank chief economist and Nobel Prize laureate, Joseph Stiglitz, described Bremer’s reforms as ‘an even more radical form of shock therapy than pursued in the former Soviet world.’

Bremer’s first act was to fire 500,000 state workers, most of them soldiers, but also doctors, nurses, teachers, publishers, and printers. Next, he opened the country’s borders to unrestricted imports: no tariffs, no duties, no inspections, no taxes. Two weeks after Bremer came to Baghdad in May 2003, he cynically declared Iraq to be ‘open for business.’ Whose business he didn’t say but it soon became clear.

crowonapost · #12 (**permalink**) 01-17-2007, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nathanbforrest45

Is there a point to all of this?

Quite simply yes.

Bremer oversaw the implementation of the Neocon vision. A vision of a 'freemarket' pro business fantasy without any of the constructs that allow for free markets & business. An infrastructure of,
Quote from Sam,
500,000 state workers, most of them soldiers, but also doctors, nurses, teachers, publishers, and printers.

in essence the people who make up a society.

What Bremer oversaw was an Ideology freed from any constraints on reality. What we lost was
Quote from OkhamsRazor Let's start with this... over $280 billion (IN CASH!!!)

IN Neocon dollars.

Finally THANK YOU OkhamsRazor for stating it succinctly & to the point. What these individuals who choose to be Koolaid drinking Jones town followers as apposed to free thinking individualists like yourself is more of the distraction & NO substance because Bremer is the point. His tenure speaks for itself.
It is everything that is wrong with Iraq & he is the cutting edge of ALL this failed policy.

So yes nathanbforrest45 there is a point to all of this & OkhamsRazor zeroed in on that point.

You guys brought NOTHING of substance.
I will go so far as to say nothing of humanity just petty categorizing to snicker in your corner like the little grade school geek mentality I see exemplified so often by fraternal binary thinking around here.

nathanbforrest45 · #13 (**permalink**) 01-17-2007, 09:22 AM

OMG, another case can be made against the United States involvement in Iraq. Who could have possibly forseen the left in this country would be against such a thing. I submit we should pull out of Iraq in the next 24 hours. I submit we should make it a capital crime to ever mention the word Iraq again. We should immediately execute anyone who suggest that leaving Iraq would lead to the death of millions of Shites.

Go for it Sam, tell us exactly what you would do. We all know you are the premier intellectual on this board since you live in Oregon and are so knowledgable in oh so many fields.

Deadshot · #14 (**permalink**) 01-17-2007, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nathanbforrest45

OMG, another case can be made against the United States involvement in Iraq. Who could have possibly forseen the left in this country would be against such a thing. I submit we should pull out of Iraq in the next 24 hours. I submit we should make it a capital crime to ever mention the word Iraq again. We should immediately execute anyone who suggest that leaving Iraq would lead to the death of millions of Shites.

Go for it Sam, tell us exactly what you would do. We all know you are the premier intellectual on this board since you live in Oregon and are so knowledgable in oh so many fields.

What always suprises me about people like you Nathan is how mad you get. Your side screwed the pooch here, not Sam and my side. Everyone from the President on down are admitting "failures", "problems" and "miscalculations". Bush and Co. ignored so many people who stated that invasion was a bad idea and continued to push and push until the mid-terms when his power base was ousted.

Should we leave Iraq now, No. Should we stop talking about Iraq, NO. Do we have an obligation and responsibility to leave Iraq better then we found it, YES! But that does not mean that it's wrong for Sam, or anyone else, to point out that Bush and Co. fucked up royally and now the whole country will pay the price for his stupidity for the next few years.

I think the real reason your side gets so mad is that we have evidence of your leaders idiocy, your parties corruption and your sides loss of power and importance in America.

rob · #15 (**permalink**) 01-17-2007, 09:51 AM

You know, when I started posting here, I would put a link in place and then tell you my opinion. I am very tired of the liberal bs that says let me find something post it and then after people comment on it, then I decide where I stand on it.

I have admitted many times that I am not a college educated professional like some many on this board would have you beleive they are. I have common sense and I am a Partriot. I am able to read and research many items of interest to myself and others. The common thread here is that unless your educated or a liberal you should let your betters make the comments and just try to stay up.

My conservative up bringing is not something I am ashamed of and I have raised my family with the same beleifs.

The adminstration has made mistakes, but continuing to knock the mistakes without offering a solution is just plain stupid.

Deadshot · #16 (**permalink**) 01-17-2007, 10:02 AM

The solution was NOT TO BE THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!! So many told Bush that.

Jeez, rob you talk about taking responsibility. I've seen so many conservatives willing to reduce welfare to talk to a 20 year old with three kids about what she "should have done" and "how you screwed up your life" without offering a solution, a la Welfare. Isn't this the same thing?

As to a solution pick up the Iraq Study Groups report or a bill by Democratic Senator Levin each saying that the USA should begin handing over power to Iraq and NOT building up anything. We came with solutions, they were ignored. In fact eh Iraq Study Group was there to aide the Prez!!!

So come on, we tried solutions, you ignored us until this November.

nathanbforrest45 · #17 (**permalink**) 01-17-2007, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deadshot

What always suprises me about people like you Nathan is how mad you get. Your side screwed the pooch here, not Sam and my side. Everyone from the President on down are admitting "failures", "problems" and "miscalculations". Bush and Co. ignored so many people who stated that invasion was a bad idea and continued to push and push until the mid-terms when his power base was ousted.

Should we leave Iraq now, No. Should we stop talking about Iraq, NO. Do we have an obligation and responsibility to leave Iraq better then we found it, YES! But that does not mean that it's wrong for Sam, or anyone else, to point out that Bush and Co. fucked up royally and now the whole country will pay the price for his stupidity for the next few years.

I think the real reason your side gets so mad is that we have evidence of your leaders idiocy, your parties corruption and your sides loss of power and importance in America.

Let me start by saying I am not mad, I merely do not like Sam. I think she is an overbearing arrogant twit. She sincerely reminds me of one of those kids in high school that was always trying to one up everyone around them. If you went to the circus, they not only went to the circus but were invited to participate in the high wire act.

Let me also say that I don't think every thing has gone according to the absolute best possible scenario, wars never do. I don't know what happened with Bremmer, and neither does anyone else at this point, only what they think happened.

I believe going into Iraq was the right thing to do. I believe the greatest threat to Western Civilization today is the radical Muslim. I am not sure how one separates the radical muslim from the everyday run of the mill kill the infidel muslim but there may be a way. I understand the left would rather bury its collective head in the sand and pooh pooh the entire idea. I know the left would rather blame the United States for every ill of the world today, up to and including hurricanes and heat waves.

I believe if the Democrats continue to claim they are not going to fund the war or force Bush to pull out or any of the other Iraq Surrender Group ideas the insurgents and all others with an interest for our failure in Iraq will merely wait and see what happens. They will apply just enough pressure to keep the radical left in this country running to a tv camera at every opportunity and then when the last American leaves Iraq they will begin the slaughter.

I believe that the leftist in this country who loudly proclaim they "Love America" don't. Cindy Sheehan claims to "Love America" but then supports America's enemies like Chavez who has stated he wanted to see an end to America. People like Robert Redford who claim to "Love America" but then support Fidel Castro. I believe they "Love America" but hate its people, government, institutions and economic system.

No, I am not as articulate as Sam or Bark or several others on this board. I only know that I believe in capitalism, God, my family and in the overall goodness in the concept of the United States of America.

And God knows I would rather live in Conservative Tennesse with all its problems than in left wing Oregon any day of the week.

Deadshot · #18 (**permalink**) 01-17-2007, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nathanbforrest45

Let me start by saying I am not mad, I merely do not like Sam. I think she is an overbearing arrogant twit. She sincerely reminds me of one of those kids in high school that was always trying to one up everyone around them. If you went to the circus, they not only went to the circus but were invited to participate in the high wire act.

Okay, you don't like Sam. I'm sure she feels the same for you. So what?

Let me also say that I don't think every thing has gone according to the absolute best possible scenario, wars never do. I don't know what happened with Bremmer, and neither does anyone else at this point, only what they think happened.

But Bush's plan WAS for everything to go right, and it hasn't.

I believe going into Iraq was the right thing to do. I believe the greatest threat to Western Civilization today is the radical Muslim. I am not sure how one separates the radical muslim from the everyday run of the mill kill the infidel muslim but there may be a way. I understand the left would rather bury its collective head in the sand and pooh pooh the entire idea. I know the left would rather blame the United States for every ill of the world today, up to and including hurricanes and heat waves.

Let me give you another Scenario, look at this map for reference, Map of Middle East instead of invading Iraq we should have waited and invaded Iran!!! That's a Liberal talking. Let's invade the country that already has democratic voting and a nuke program. Then let's form a link from allies in the east, Afghanistan, Pakistan to the center Saudi Arabia to the West Israel and Egypt and squeeze Iraq. Also we would have border contact with two allies, Afghan and Pakistan, that has Osama traveling around. WE INVADED THE WRONG PLACE!!!

I believe if the Democrats continue to claim they are not going to fund the war or force Bush to pull out or any of the other Iraq Surrender Group ideas the insurgents and all others with an interest for our failure in Iraq will merely wait and see what happens.

I would like to take this time and point out that Republican senators and representatives are also telling Bush that the "surge" is a bad idea. The Iraq Study Group was headed by and represented by staunch Republicans and conservatives...it was designed to give Bush a way out.

He's screwing it all up again, he's going to hand us the White House.

They will apply just enough pressure to keep the radical left in this country running to a tv camera at every opportunity and then when the last American leaves Iraq they will begin the slaughter.

Could I have a slaughter definition? Last year they, Iraqis, lost more then 34K dead. Since the end of major hostilities the Iraqis have lost more then 75K, or if you want to go crazy 600K

. But either way, the "slaughter" has already begun.

I believe that the leftist in this country who loudly proclaim they "Love America" don't.

You're wrong. Plain and simple, you are wrong here. It is our RIGHT to question the policies of your government.

Cindy Sheehan claims to "Love America" but then supports America's enemies like Chavez who has stated he wanted to see an end to America.

Dude, one of my kids dies in a war that the President now admits has gone sour, I'd be pissed to. As to Chavez, do you really see him as a threat or as a blow hard that makes Castro seem credible? C'mon, get real and have a little pity for Sheehan. You never want to lose a child.

People like Robert Redford who claim to "Love America" but then support Fidel Castro. I believe they "Love America" but hate its people, government, institutions and economic system.

Believe what you will. The midterms, the polls, the Republicans in Congress turning on GWB, etc. show more Americans feel like Bob and I...and yeah he lets me call him Bob, we talk a lot at the "Overthrow America" meetings

(HUMOR)

No, I am not as articulate as Sam or Bark or several others on this board. I only know that I believe in capitalism, God, my family and in the overall goodness in the concept of the United States of America.

Well I believe in my family, God and the overall goodness in the concept of the USA, in that order. I think the order of your beliefs, putting capitalism first, kinda shows why you and Sam might not get along.

And God knows I would rather live in Conservative Tennesse with all its problems than in left wing Oregon any day of the week.

OK, everyone has the right to pick where they live. But you really never addressed my post. GWB fucked up the war and most republicans just don't want to hear it. Face it, you guys just can't stand to be proven wrong.

StormanNorman · #19 (**permalink**) 01-17-2007, 01:00 PM

Big mistakes have been made in Iraq including the initial invasion and the ideologies therein. Some of us continue to point out these mistakes and others seem to get irritated when that happens. See, I'm a big believer that unless you truly recognize and understand mistakes, you are bound to repeat them.

Left-leaning leaders and right-leaning leaders have both made mistakes in the past. The current batch...the ones concerning Iraq....primarily falls on the right. I just get the sense that some...not all...of the right-leaning posters have not quite grasped the magnitude of these mistakes or they just continue to shift the blame somewhere else. Until that ceases, posters like Sam, myself, Okam, deadshot, and others will continue to document these mistakes...the more that learn and understand them, the better.

nathanbforrest45 · #20 (**permalink**) 01-17-2007, 01:10 PM

You want to know what I can't stand? I can't stand being demonized at every turn by the radical left like IHNR and his ilk. I can't stand that "thinking for oneself" in liberal terms is thinking as they tell us to think because after all they know the one true answer and anyone who disagrees is obviously a yahoo.

Give Cindy Shehan a break. Not on your life. I believe she is totally mentally unstable and is perhaps the main reason her son joined the military in the first place, to get away from her stupidity. Her husband left her for the same reason. I don't believe she harbors anything for this country other than hatred. I believe she is being willingly used by Americas enemies.

I am sorry Deadshot, I don't believe leftist love America, I believe given the opportunity they would all remake it in the vision of Stalin or Castro. Either they are completely stupid about the fact that liberalism (modern liberalism, which is actually socialism) does not work, never has, never will or they do understand that their policies is nothing more than a way to control those they believe are less intelligent than they are (which is everyone who is not a liberal) and are the personification of evil.

To me capitalism is the only economic system that allows complete freedom. And while we have never been a completely capitalistic country the closer we were to it the more the country prospered and grew.

As far as Bush making mistakes in the Iraq war, yes he has, its has taken him a long time to admit it and for that I am truly sorry. But so did Lincoln in the early stages of the War between the States. Would you have clamoured for Lincoln to have stopped trying to restore the Union because of those early loses? I believe Bush's mistakes were not giving us the shock and awe he promised, for trying to fight a politically correct war. If we are going to be the victors we must fight like we mean it.