Oh, I am not sure how many people agreed with my analysis, as they thought it was putting down Christianity but it really wasn't. I am sure I represent a minority view, but writing a major paper and being controversial sometimes go hand in hand.

I would say a major factor besides Christianity (I could discuss it with you eslewhere and explain) was something that goes along with my central premise. It was Marius' attempted reforms (which was just the beginning) which led to the legions oweing their loyalty to the general rather than the Republic (later Empire). This plays into the list of Caesars which you presented.

I will probably bring down the American Empire as well...

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Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

— Benjamin Franklin

The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.

John Adams from the " Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

Are you referring to Constanine's division of the empire and the changing of the official religion from polytheistic to the Christian religion?

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Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

— Benjamin Franklin

The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.

John Adams from the " Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

what you dont realize that the average household income with a person living on minimum wage is in the $40,000. Just like the facts state. What does this till you. That most likely means that the minimum wage workers are kids living at home and working for some extra cash. Or the housewife who picks up a few extra hours ti fill her christmas club.

and like dom said earlier if you are raising a family on minimum wage. then the blame isn't the employer or the governmnet or society. it is you.

This mentality of what can i get out of the company needs to stop. Most of the people dont realize how lucky they are to be working and apreciate there bosses for giving them work to feed there familiys. And i will be honest with you the people that i move to higher postions are the people with this attitude.....

No. I am talking about how the loyalty of the people changed. I feel that many considered themselves Christian before they considered themselves Roman. This is far different than what Rome was built upon. Every culturre has some great stories of sacrifice for the state, but the Roman examples are really bring this concept home to me. They are examples of what the Republic was built on. The stories of Cincinattus and Brutus (not the one who killed Julius Caesar) are great examples of that loyalty. Again, there is much more than this and I would discuss this with anyone who has their own theories or wants to just discuss it in general. Perhaps another thread if there is interest.

Also, Constantine did not actually make Christianity the official religion. It didn't become the official religion until about 50 years after his death when Theodosius made it the official religion. Theodosius comes into the analysis as well. He let St. Ambrose dictate some policy which to me is an example of the "Holy Sun Royal Moon" analogy.

Again, I don't say that it was necessarily a bad thing, I just think Christianity had a major role in bringing down the Roman Empire. I recognize that many don't agree with me on this.

I have no love for Demiocrats, especially NancyPelosi, but the idea that jobs are going overseas is clearly fallacious.

It just isn't happening.

Your funny. Verry funny. I dont even think I need to respond to that. I think everyone knows allready.

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"Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they've made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem." Ronald Reagan http://www.arguewitheveryone.com/war...bout-iraq.html

well we gave one example. As far a manufacturing jobs that are mainly blue coler jobs will be effected. The few remaining business that have decided to stay in this country and squeze and cut every penny and nickel to do so. Will be faced with two decisions. Close up shop. Or move production overseas. The only reason the manufacturers that haven't left over the last 10 or so years is the lower rate of a dollar compared to other currancy's.

The argument that i hear from democrats and libs is that we are loosing our manufacturing base and we are loosing jobs. Well i will tell you what. Raise the minimum wage. And what hasn't left already will most likely leave....

It seems to me that the majority of business's starting up in the last 10 years or so are service releated industries. That is not to make light of them but most manufacturing jobs are no longer in this country. I wonder how we get them back without someone saying it is corporate welfare.

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An informed voter scares the Goverment lackeys.

An American first and always a Conservative.

I seem to remember the guy saying that his main stuff was from reading Gaius Plinius Secundus (the Elder), Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus (the Younger), and Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus and how during when the younger was alive things started to change for the worse. Suetonius is the guy who wrote the Lives of the Caesers...right? I think that is what I Claudius is mainly based on (little more lurid though). The guy who we had described one of these guys as the 'Walter Wenchel of the time and loved to dish out all the soap opera stuff about the leaders in Rome'...maybe Pliny the Younger? I remember the story about Nero loving to catch flies, pull their wings off, and watch the insect walk helplessly on a table in front of him until they died.