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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 10-05-2006, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by mikeydude View Post
i say that there are two chinas. china the modern superpower, with very open markets,exists in around twenty industrialized cities. the rest of the nation is still busy building roads and dams by hand cart. still firmly in the grip of the red star. if anything, our open trade with china makes it harder to root the goverment out of power, not more likely. with US dollars the chinese dazzel their citizens with ultra modern giant cities with the latest technologies,launches people into space, has advanced cruise missle technology and has assembeld a huge military/police force. much of chinas military is based well from the reach of but a few american aircraft. they are a force.a giant on the verge of awakening. i am not one who believes we should finance the alarm clock.

the chinese goverment mixed with an open world market has the advantage. if the city of shanghi want to build a luxury hotle or factory where your home or business is located to bad. no appeal.next.they can play with cities and economies in ways a free nation never could. they can offer any condition that a corporation finds favorable. they do not ask their citizen anything.
companies from around the world are flocking to communist china. not because it is a democracy,in fact it is just the opposite.
To accomplish that, they have had to loosen up on internal communications, as well as external communications. They can't tighten back down on commo without hurting their economy and causing unrest. But the commo also brings info about the rest of the world to the average citizen. They are well along on the process of liberalization and can't back up now. They are committed, whether they like it or not.

Remember, in my adult lifetime, everybody there wore Mao suits and carried a copy of "The Quotations of Chairman Mao" on them at all times.

Those 20 cities that you mention will continue to bring in new ideas that will flow out to all the country.

They will become a democracy. It may take another 30 years, but it will happen.
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Old 10-05-2006, 11:34 PM
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I think the whole debate is getting derailed. Firstly this is not about Conservatives and French,but rather the ills afflicting capitalist society.
Capitalism has numerous ills. Undoubtedly it is a misnomer to hold it has generated unprecedented wealth. It has done so only for a section of people. One of the greatest frauds in history is that some countries where a large number of people live in despicable conditions are now considered to be global economic players.I am referring to India and China.
With regard to countries such as Britain and the United States sections of society are really badly off, such as pensioners and the working class. In the United States I have heard pensioners have to pay through their noses for medical expenses and prefer crossing the border to Canada to buy medicines!
France has better system as it has a greater role for the state and has not left everything to laissez faire free market economics. Integration of minorities is not something unique to France.The same problem is found elsewhere as well.
The requirement of the times,in my opinion is Scientific Socialism,whereby socialism is combined with democratic characteristics and a limited private sector.

Yeah, one problem is people vote for what benefits themselves and not the country, a form of extortion in my opinion which leaves every policitan pandering.
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Old 10-06-2006, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Silverhair View Post
To accomplish that, they have had to loosen up on internal communications, as well as external communications. They can't tighten back down on commo without hurting their economy and causing unrest. But the commo also brings info about the rest of the world to the average citizen. They are well along on the process of liberalization and can't back up now. They are committed, whether they like it or not.

Remember, in my adult lifetime, everybody there wore Mao suits and carried a copy of "The Quotations of Chairman Mao" on them at all times.

Those 20 cities that you mention will continue to bring in new ideas that will flow out to all the country.

They will become a democracy. It may take another 30 years, but it will happen.
i hope your wishful thinking is true. if not we are creating our own downfall. i veiw china as nothing more than an envious rival, who will say and do anything to get to the top. i try my very best not to support nations that hold political prisoners and slaves. kill or imprison people who worship their respective god. value and devalue thier currency to undermine world economies. build long range missles that are pointed toward my family and country. i find these things offensive,as any american should. if you theory is that money will do away with evil........i think there is an old saying about that......
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Old 10-06-2006, 12:22 PM
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"Give me a break, our "capitalist pigs" have produced the most wealth of any country in history."

Too bad all that wealth is mortgaged to socialist countries, isn't it?
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Old 10-06-2006, 06:21 PM
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Yeah, one problem is people vote for what benefits themselves and not the country, a form of extortion in my opinion which leaves every policitan pandering.
One step further, a rather large group votes for what they believe will benefit them, whether its a larger share of spending on irresponsible social programs, or a bridge to nowhere....
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Old 10-07-2006, 08:38 AM
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Originally Posted by mikeydude View Post
i hope your wishful thinking is true. if not we are creating our own downfall. i veiw china as nothing more than an envious rival, who will say and do anything to get to the top. i try my very best not to support nations that hold political prisoners and slaves. kill or imprison people who worship their respective god. value and devalue thier currency to undermine world economies. build long range missles that are pointed toward my family and country. i find these things offensive,as any american should. if you theory is that money will do away with evil........i think there is an old saying about that......

Not wishful thinking. Read "The J Curve". It is about how a nation moves from a closed to an open society and that nation's political stability. Combine that with free market economics which is the decentralization of the economy. Result is that they can't go back.

It is not an "old saying". Jesus said, "The LOVE of money is the root of all evil." But you are not understanding either money or economics. Money is a method of measuring personal power. In a centralized economy, all the money (decision making power) is concentrated in the hands of a few. But as the Chinese economy become more free market, it decentralizes the decision making so the the top loses a share of power, even as the economy grows.

The very nature of a free market undercuts the power of those on top. It is a quiet, peaceful, and happy revolution. It will put the leadership of China in a quandry. To make China richer, they have to give up more of their power. But if they love having their power too much, then they restrict the market and China loses money, and they have a larger share of power in a less powerful country.

Look at North Korea vs South Korea. Kim has ALL the power, and his country is desperately poor - one of the poorest on the earth. SK, the gov't has less share of power, but the country has become an economic powerhouse.

The tighter the dictatorship, the worse the country performs economically. It is like having an increasing share of a declining market. You finally end up as the only seller of vacuum tubes when everybody is buying transistors.
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Old 10-07-2006, 05:51 PM
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mexico has taken its fair share of factories from around the world. while conditions are better there than say thirty years ago, just barley.there is no end to their political corruption.poverty and crime are stapels of the cities that house these factories. things like nafta havnt changed there lives enough to stop them from swimming the rio grande and illegaly working for four bucks an hour.as i have said before companies locate to places like mexico and china because they offer conditions of poverty and weakness to be exploited. it is in the best intrest of chinese goverment to keep a large percentage of there population poor and dependent. the upper, ruling class will be the recipiants of unbelievable wealth and power. that is how it has always been in china and mexico. now more than ever. nothing the chinese have ever invented, which is alot, ever benifited the common citizen. this is no differnt. the wealth we openly send them goes to the communist goverment. funding more of the same.places like mexico or guatamala or hounduras have plenty of western factories and are far from wealthy or even truley free. until they are i dont spare it a second thought for china.
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Old 10-08-2006, 01:02 PM
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Companies move overseas because liberals in America do their best to make sure corporations based here at home make no profit. If you are making money, then you must be doing something evil, and/or not paying your workers enough. So eventually you force all major businesses to leave America and find a place where their business can prosper.
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Old 10-08-2006, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Capitalist Pig View Post
Companies move overseas because liberals in America do their best to make sure corporations based here at home make no profit. If you are making money, then you must be doing something evil, and/or not paying your workers enough. So eventually you force all major businesses to leave America and find a place where their business can prosper.
gee maybe we should pay people $2-3 an hour like in mexico or better yet $2-3 a day like in china. or maybe we should just pay you that.
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Old 10-08-2006, 10:51 PM
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It isnt a matter of paying people unlivable wages like that. There are strikes going on all the time where the Union demands are unreasonable. For example if you'll recall the big strike at Lockheed Martin not that long ago. The Lockheed executives sat down with the union leaders and showed them the corporate budget. They showed them exactly what the company could afford to do. But that isnt good enough for the union, they could give a rats ass if the company is profitable or not so long as their unreasonable demands are met. Or what about the big fuss over Wal Mart? The problem I see in alot of these cases, is that people try to make a career out of a job that they should have held for a couple years after highschool while they paid off their student loans. These people will go and be a greeter at Wal Mart, or a night restocker at Raley's, and they want to get raises every year along with full medical coverage. Raley's is not a career damnit! Go and get an education if you want better pay. You want a company to pay you like they want you around, then make them want you around! Make yourself valuable! Jesus Christ, these people think that they can pick any job, and then their chosen employer is required to make possible their desired lifestyle. Yah, why shouldnt a company pay somebody 3 dollars an hour if that is what the work is worth? You want more than that, go somewhere else where they will pay it. Make yourself worth more than 3 dollars an hour god damnit.
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