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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 12-25-2007, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by cat's meow View Post
The free market system is basically a Western based conncept of supply and demand. It would truly work if:
  • There were no political boundries
  • All people had the same eduation and knowledge base
  • All people believed in the same exact God, or all were atheist
  • All people lived in the same climate
    etc
I think number 2 and 3 on your list are the most important....

That seems to be where we (as a species) are doing the worst...especially 3...
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 12-25-2007, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by CrankyYankee View Post
I think number 2 and 3 on your list are the most important....

That seems to be where we (as a species) are doing the worst...especially 3...
And I would add that if everyone's ability (which depends on the individual) to make their next dollar is independent of the wealth they have already accumulated.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 12-26-2007, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cat's meow View Post
The free market system is basically a Western based conncept of supply and demand. It would truly work if:
  • There were no political boundries
  • All people had the same eduation and knowledge base
  • All people believed in the same exact God, or all were atheist
  • All people lived in the same climate
    etc
No, the free market system is basically a HUMAN-devised system of, if you break it down, barter with little-to-know interference by outside parties such as government.

It can be as primitive as direct barter of goods and services for other goods and services or more advanced with the exhange of goods/services for somethng of par value (agreed to by parties, which can include state-issued notes or "money" or other things which are easily converted to such notes or easily traded in the place of such notes).

It has been the primary means of this sort of exchange since Oog first determined he could trade spear tips for mastadon meat without ever having himself to go on the hunt. Supply and demand kicks in when Oog's spear tips are so good at what they are intended to do, the herds are plentiful and the hunters with whom he trades are not utter morons, that the tribe grows, requiring more mastadon meat, obtained with Oog's speartips, which he then must make more of to keep up with demand.

Free market capitalism is not as complex and mysterious as leftists, Keynsians, Malthusians and other anti-Westerners want to believe.

Let's look at Kookie's anarchist's cookbook list here:
1. It's true that fewer boundaries of ANY kind encourage rather than discourage free market trade,

2. What on earth does this have to do with anything? And what does it mean: We should all be educated as physicists, or none of us should be educated beyond say a typical 8th grade (US) education? I am assuming Kookie believes that if you are better educated you will take advantage of the less educated. An odd argument and utterly without any basis in fact. Why is it necessary for Oog (in my example) to know where (knowledge base) the best mastadon hunting grounds are in order for him to make his spear tips, and if the hunters have the same ability as Oog to find good flint for knapping into speartips and can make the same quality tips themselves, why keep Oog around at all? And is this even possible: Can a 19 yr old HAVE the same knowledge as a graybeard? I know they all THINK they are smarter and know more than old men who "just don't get it," but is that really true?

3. What difference does this make? I migh worship rocks, and Oog might worship trees. Does this mean we can't talk mastadons and speartips with one another and if so, why?

4. I can't even imagine why anyone would believe this is necessary to free trade. The Innuit engaged in trade of furs and blubber with the Vikings who got wine from the Levant, whose people got silk from China, and gold from Africa....this makes no sense at all and bespeaks someone who is either incapable of thought or rarely engages in it.

5. Etc. Etc....what? This could mean anything! That everyone is the same hat size? That nobody is mentally or physically handicapped? That everyone had the same physical and intellectual ability? What does it mean? What are the limits? Are there any?

This is n00bery writ large.

People like Kookie should stick to keeping their heads insulated in that special way they do, and leave the mysteries of thought to others more qualified.

Tokie
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 12-26-2007, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by CrankyYankee View Post
I think number 2 and 3 on your list are the most important....

That seems to be where we (as a species) are doing the worst...especially 3...
Most important for....what?

You clearly don't understand free market economics andy better than Kookie, so what are you talking about?

Doing worst...at what? Having the same faith?

What does that even mean?

What does it have to do with market economics?

Tokie
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 12-26-2007, 02:22 PM
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In the 1980's Congress in its infinite wisdom passed a luxury tax on expensive cars, airplanes and boats. After the tax was passed less money was collected than before. The reasons were simple. The rich who bought such items went to Europe and Asia to purchase cars planes and boats. The luxury boat industry, primarily in the US before the tax, almost completely shut down. Many long established boat builders sunk (pardon the pun). The luxury airplane market also crashed in this country. The net result of that was a lay off of thousands of people since there was no longer a market for their skills. Thier incomes dropped, the taxes they paid disappeared, the taxes the companies they worked for disappeared, no one was buying luxury items in the United States so that tax was never collected.

But Congress showed them they meant business about those luxury items.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 12-28-2007, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokenconservative View Post
No, the free market system is basically a HUMAN-devised system of, if you break it down, barter with little-to-know interference by outside parties such as government.
The 'free market system' himan devised but the things I already mentioned are more basic to human nature and always rear their ugly head when trade comes up (after the fact).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokenconservative View Post
It can be as primitive as direct barter of goods and services for other goods and services or more advanced with the exhange of goods/services for somethng of par value (agreed to by parties, which can include state-issued notes or "money" or other things which are easily converted to such notes or easily traded in the place of such notes).
There are human activities and 'foibles' that pre-date this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokenconservative View Post
It has been the primary means of this sort of exchange since Oog first determined he could trade spear tips for mastadon meat without ever having himself to go on the hunt. Supply and demand kicks in when Oog's spear tips are so good at what they are intended to do, the herds are plentiful and the hunters with whom he trades are not utter morons, that the tribe grows, requiring more mastadon meat, obtained with Oog's speartips, which he then must make more of to keep up with demand.
You are not too up on human anthropology, are you?

Here are some things that pre-date the barter system.
  • Hunting, gathering
  • Hierachy, caste system, dominant males or females within a group or pack
  • belief systems in the 'sun' the 'moon'...representative Gods or powers.
  • the outlining of 'territory' or land so to create a space that was safe and for 'your people.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokenconservative View Post
Free market capitalism is not as complex and mysterious as leftists, Keynsians, Malthusians and other anti-Westerners want to believe.

Let's look at Kookie's anarchist's cookbook list here:
1. It's true that fewer boundaries of ANY kind encourage rather than discourage free market trade,

2. What on earth does this have to do with anything? And what does it mean: We should all be educated as physicists, or none of us should be educated beyond say a typical 8th grade (US) education? I am assuming Kookie believes that if you are better educated you will take advantage of the less educated. An odd argument and utterly without any basis in fact. Why is it necessary for Oog (in my example) to know where (knowledge base) the best mastadon hunting grounds are in order for him to make his spear tips, and if the hunters have the same ability as Oog to find good flint for knapping into speartips and can make the same quality tips themselves, why keep Oog around at all? And is this even possible: Can a 19 yr old HAVE the same knowledge as a graybeard? I know they all THINK they are smarter and know more than old men who "just don't get it," but is that really true?

3. What difference does this make? I migh worship rocks, and Oog might worship trees. Does this mean we can't talk mastadons and speartips with one another and if so, why?

4. I can't even imagine why anyone would believe this is necessary to free trade. The Innuit engaged in trade of furs and blubber with the Vikings who got wine from the Levant, whose people got silk from China, and gold from Africa....this makes no sense at all and bespeaks someone who is either incapable of thought or rarely engages in it.

5. Etc. Etc....what? This could mean anything! That everyone is the same hat size? That nobody is mentally or physically handicapped? That everyone had the same physical and intellectual ability? What does it mean? What are the limits? Are there any?

This is n00bery writ large.

People like Kookie should stick to keeping their heads insulated in that special way they do, and leave the mysteries of thought to others more qualified.

Tokie
Why does the African continent as a whole continue to lag behind? They have little to nothing to trade with the modern world. Try to figure out all what you have just said and you might figure out why 'free trade' completely de-void of all government is not the answer.

Last edited by cat's meow; 12-28-2007 at 12:35 PM.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 12-28-2007, 12:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tokenconservative View Post
Most important for....what?

You clearly don't understand free market economics andy better than Kookie, so what are you talking about?

Doing worst...at what? Having the same faith?

What does that even mean?

What does it have to do with market economics?

Tokie
Economics is just one part of the interrelated processes that make up human existence....

Humans have forces other than economics that influence behavior.
Those other factors influence how economics function, just as economics factors in these other areas....
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 12-28-2007, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyYankee View Post
Economics is just one part of the interrelated processes that make up human existence....

Humans have forces other than economics that influence behavior.
Those other factors influence how economics function, just as economics factors in these other areas....
You Clearly don't understand Tokienomics!

Example A. His logical flow chart.


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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 12-28-2007, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by crowonapost View Post
You Clearly don't understand Tokienomics!

Laughs! Great chart. I did discover the freezing point of beer one winter when I left a six pack outside.

Probably the extent of my foray into Tokienomics!
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 12-28-2007, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by CrankyYankee View Post
Laughs! Great chart. I did discover the freezing point of beer one winter when I left a six pack outside.

Probably the extent of my foray into Tokienomics!
Well, Cranky, Tokienomics is not for the light of heart.....hopefully, everything worked out with the six pack....
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