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  #51 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2008, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by TakuanSoho View Post
What happens if the government is the individual, like with a monarchy.
Tak
I am going to modify my post slightly. I will change it to interference by government or by force of any nature. In the case of a monarchy as long as the "king" does not interfer with my freedoms I don't care. I would rather have a king who believed in capitalism than a democracy that was socialistic in nature.

Furthermore, force is the real issue here, not what kind of government or how many are are involved. If a group, no matter who that group is, attempts to impose its will on others then I would be opposed to it. Free men should be exactly that, free men.
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Old 04-17-2008, 08:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Heckler View Post
I disagree. If economic self interest was the ONLY factor motivating people, why reproduce? That would NOT be in your self interest in todays world because child take away from your economic self interest.

Other factors can influence people to take actions not in their best economic interest as well. Romantic love can make people do all kinds of crazy shit.
There may be several reasons that apply to rational self interest to reproduce. One is the simple biological factor of survival of the species. Secondly, and a part of the first, is that having children helps you in your old age (hopefully) and assist you in maintaining your wealth by having family ties.

Romantic love, while unnecessary for the servival of the race, does insure that you seek out a partner and have little hecklers running loose.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2008, 08:51 AM
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Originally Posted by mulp View Post
That sounds like some sort of slavery or bondage. To place a burden on anyone is certainly the same as socialism.....
You think that because you don't really understand the issue. Just like saying wind rain and sun are "factors" of production.
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Old 04-17-2008, 08:54 AM
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Originally Posted by mulp View Post
So, isn't forcing an insurance company to provide the services that you paid premiums for akin to socialism? Shouldn't the insurance company be allowed to disown you, repaying the premiums you paid in paying for medical bills, and then call it even? That would be more than a kid who disowns his parents at 21 after they put him through college.
You have a contract with the insurance company. For the premiums you pay they agree to insure you for loss. If they do what you imply then they can be sued for breach of contract. Free trade does not mean everyone does what they want period.

Besides, how long do you think an insurance company would remain in business if this was their practice?
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Old 04-17-2008, 09:04 AM
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But if you read their contracts, they determine what services are necessary and appropriate. And they also have the right to cancel the contract or to raise the price of the contract after some period or with some specified notice, don't they?

Let's say a law existed that stated that insurance companes had to treat everyone the same when it comes to accepting them and in the rates charged, and that they could not refuse to pay any claim that meets the standard listed by periodic negotiations between all parties. This would be basically the conditions in Germany, Switzerland, Taiwan. Would that represent an interference in the free market or a means of promoting the free market?
Its still a contract that you freely entered into. If you don't agree with the contract then don't do business with them. As long as people agree to the contract, regardless of how much it may be onesided, they will continue to write those contracts.

You want the government to be your negotiator by force. To me that is wrong
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Old 04-17-2008, 09:18 AM
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Originally Posted by satv365 View Post
Soviet Union: Fell
Communist Mongolia is now a Free Market Economy.
Communist Vietnam has begun a process of freeing up it's economy.
Communist Laos has been encouraging free market practices since the 1980s.
Communist Cuba has already given up on Socialism.
The Khmer Rouge of Cambodia was ousted by it's own people and the economy is getting better, each year.
Communist China has opened up it's market to private investment and free market principles. It's wealth speaks for itself.



All these Nations combined have committed atrocities that have claimed the lives of millions of innocent people. All of them are responsible for stifling political dissenters, forced labor, rape and murder at the hands of their own Governments.

No other Economic Practice in the world has lead to so many needless deaths in the pursuit of Collective Rights and centralized planning of the economy. People starved because of forcing people to grow food on Communal Farms, or lack of innovation at the hands of Soviet industrialists made the standard of living far below that of America and those who benefited from the Marshall Plan and Europe.

I find it unreasonably idiotic that the Nations of the West. A former bastion of Political and Economic Freedom are reverting to Centralization of the Economy and drastically curtailing the practices of Individual Rights and Liberty.

Meanwhile, the former Communist and Socialist Nations are freeing up there respective economies and life gets better, as ours gets worse.

The Free Market Works, and Individual Rights are a necessity for a free society to remain free.

No Socialist Economy has ever worked, ever. Socialism, does not work.
Differentiate between the two. Are you discussing Communism or Socialism? Sweden I would describe as a Socialist leaning country. No comparison to Communist China?GOVERNMENT
Popular government in Sweden rests upon ancient tradition. The Swedish parliament (Riksdag) stems from tribal courts (Ting) and the election of kings in the Viking age. It became a permanent institution in the 15th century. Sweden's government is a limited constitutional monarchy with a parliamentary system. Executive authority is vested in the cabinet, which consists of a prime minister and 22 ministers who run the government departments. The present Alliance for Sweden government, led by Prime Minister Fredrik Reinfeldt, came to power in September 2006. King Carl XVI Gustaf (Bernadotte) ascended to the throne on September 15, 1973. His authority is formal, symbolic, and representational. The unicameral Riksdag has 349 members, popularly elected every 4 years, and is in session generally from September through mid-June.

Sweden has three levels of government: national, regional, and local. In addition, there is the European level which has acquired increasing importance following Sweden's entry into the EU. At parliamentary elections and municipal and county council elections held every four years, voters elect those who are to decide how Sweden is governed and administered.

Sweden is divided into 18 counties (lan), 18 county councils (landsting), 290 municipalities (kommuner), and 2 semi-independent regions. Each county (lan) is headed by a governor, who is appointed by the central government. The counties coordinate administration with national political goals for the county. The county council (landsting) is a regional government that is popularly elected with particular responsibility for health and medical care. The municipalities are local governments that deal with issues such as education, public transportation and social welfare. Elected municipal councils are headed by executive committees roughly analogous to the boards of commissioners found in some U.S. cities.

Swedish law, drawing on Germanic and Roman, is neither as codified as in France and other countries influenced by the Napoleonic Code, nor as dependent on judicial practice and precedents as in the United States. Legislative and judicial institutions include, in addition to the Riksdag, the Supreme Court, the Supreme Administrative Court, the Labor Court, the Law Council, District Courts and Courts of Appeal, the Public Prosecutor's Office, the parliamentary ombudsmen and the Chancellor of Justice who oversee the application of laws with particular attention to abuses of authority.

At the national level, the Swedish people are represented by the Riksdag (Swedish parliament) which has legislative powers. Proposals for new laws are presented by the government which also implements decisions taken by the Riksdag. The government is assisted in its work by the government offices, comprising a number of ministries, and some 300 central government agencies and public administrations
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Old 04-17-2008, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by nathanbforrest45 View Post
There may be several reasons that apply to rational self interest to reproduce. One is the simple biological factor of survival of the species. Secondly, and a part of the first, is that having children helps you in your old age (hopefully) and assist you in maintaining your wealth by having family ties.

Romantic love, while unnecessary for the servival of the race, does insure that you seek out a partner and have little hecklers running loose.
survival of the species would imply some sort of value to the collective, not the individual...in a society based on rational self interest, what economic self interest would children have in helping their parents?

As for the Borg/Ferengi thing, I thought the point was that either extreme was rather vulgar.

I still say we need a better balance between collective responsibility and individual rights....

Scary thought about those little hecklers!!!
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2008, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Heckler View Post
survival of the species would imply some sort of value to the collective, not the individual...in a society based on rational self interest, what economic self interest would children have in helping their parents?

As for the Borg/Ferengi thing, I thought the point was that either extreme was rather vulgar.

I still say we need a better balance between collective responsibility and individual rights....

Scary thought about those little hecklers!!!
Well, the economic self interest could be the fact they inherit the farm after the old man kicks off. There could be many reasons, as many as there are people invovled, who knows.

The Ferenghi were a bit extreme to say the least but I would relate more to them than to the Borg.

If you think little Hecklers might be scary think about a pack of little Nathans all on horse back yelling "Yee Hah"
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Old 04-17-2008, 09:48 AM
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Default pay for it!!!!

there is healthcare avaliable to anyone who wants it, thats not the problem the problem is some people want someone else to pay for it for them,you can go to most any job and have the chance to get insurance if you so choose,yes you have to pay a little something,but you have the chance never the less,heres a few mcdonalds,walmart,k-mart,and the list goes on so you cant say its not avaliable.the question is are you responsible enough to take intiative and be (self)reliant?
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  #60 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2008, 11:32 AM
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Originally Posted by nathanbforrest45 View Post
You have a contract with the insurance company. For the premiums you pay they agree to insure you for loss. If they do what you imply then they can be sued for breach of contract. Free trade does not mean everyone does what they want period.

Besides, how long do you think an insurance company would remain in business if this was their practice?
They stay in business for decades.

The cost of fighting the insurance company in money and time prevents most people from pursuing their claims. On occasion the cases do go to juries and the juries have awarded massive punitive damages which have then been litigated for years or decades afterward.

Consider the case New England Mutual Life Insurance Co. v. Woodworth which was argued in the US Supreme Court in 1884; the insurance company refused to pay the death benefit, and when sued in the State of residence of the beneficiary claimed that court had no jurisdiction. It remained in business as an independent corporation until acquired more than a century later.
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