What world are you living in?? The war for freedom? Are you freaking kidding me? The Iraq war has never been about freedom....although the "term" has been used quite frequently as one (of many ever changing) talking points for this illegal and immoral war.

I would burst out in laughter is this wasn't so pathetically twisted. The economy SUCKS, there is a housing CRISIS and we are facing (if not entering) a RECESSION.

Shrub and Co are directly responsible for the free fall this country is in and you have the balls to sing praises of this worm? Again, what universe are you living in?

Ahhh I see your universe now. You are one of the elite, the powerful, pulled yourself up by your bootstraps, did ya?

I'm really not impressed with anyone blaming the poor, disabled, elderly, resource-less citizens for the lack of movement by Shrub et al.

New Orleans citizens were not helped mainly because of their demographics but also to "show" us Americans how government programs really "don't work".

I'll say it again. Those who don't believe in government have NO BUSINESS participating in it.

Oh Jkay--not another moveon.lib--I thought we were just talking about the cost of war--and as expected you conceded that argument and moved on to your next talking point. And next you will tell me it was a War For Oil! Which must be why the cost of oil is so affordable--because were stealing all that Iraqi oil right?

What happened to the tax discussion?--I see were movingon.again. The housing crisis is a major factor--but what could Bush personally have done to avoid it. Do you Jkay want the government to hold your wallet for you--do you want government to control the housing and mortgage markets--is that part of your ideology comrade?

Not at all--just an average everyday citizen who believes in self reposnisblity and accountability--as well as common sense thinking--the things liberals tend to disagree with.

I was never blaming them--they are the ones that truely needed help--and those are the ones that Nagin (D) and Jefferson (D) left behind. Just as I dont blame those that suck on the democrat provided social tit--its human nature to accept "free" money.
Ill say it again--stay in the bowl--just quit coming to me when it floods time after time after time.

Actually Tokie

You and I once again miracles of all miracles agree .

I do not believe welfare moms should stay on welfare , if they can't get their acts together I agree put the kids in orphanages till they do . They would be better off. But you sound knowledgeable about the reforms so you should know that is what the 2 year time limit is all about . They either get work training and get a job or they get dumped off anyway. Sure they can have another baby and stretch the time out to 5 years , but that is the max now days and they get booted for life . I think we can err on the side of caution and afford the current program . I'd like to see it tightened further , maybe that will happen .

I agree young able bodied men should not get welfare . And they do not . They are not eligible and you know it tokie . Now they might be living off some woman who does , but they cannot get a dime for themselves and I think you knew that tokie . And after all we cannot go about policing who women sleep with now can we ?

I disagree who ever gets in the white house next go around is not going to get a chance to break the bank as you say. The country is too far in debt to start spending huge money on social programs till we get the debt down .

Otherwise we agree

Oh , I believe people should be in this country legally or not at all . Its a security issue really after 911 . We should not have people pouring across our southern border , they could be terrorists . I say round them all up and send them home and close our borders. So your last point was way off target .

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Except you have no clue what you are talking about badmutha

I cannot count the number of loud mouth men I have met on the internet , on christian discussion forums no less . Who rant on and on about their tax money being spent on bums and welfare whores and it has to stop all social programs should stop . These kinda guys are usually on the net 24/7 , so eventually somebody gets around to asking them what they do for a living , they reply I am on disability insurance .

The conversation pretty much goes like this from there .

Dead beat SSD bum: I hurt my back at work and have a lot of pain.
I smashed my hand at work and have a lot of pain
I broke my leg and its never healed right
(whatever pick your illness , they have them all)

Forum Member : Really did you have surgery ? Sorry to hear that man , hope your doing better.


Dead Beat SSD Bum: Oh I am doing all right , had a hard time getting the social security to pay for my Oxycotin ( perceset - darvon Pick your poison they take them all) Had a hard time getting the SSI to keep paying for my prescriptions last month , but my doctor wrote them a letter and That is all fixed.


Forum Member : Uh , dead beat , tell me why are you crying about social programs and tax payer money when you are living on one????

Dead Beat SSD BUM : I am not on welfare , I am on a insurance program I paid for . Just collecting my insurance is all.

Forum Member : How long you been on disability ?

Dead Beat SSD BUM , OH just for 5 years , I tried to go back to work , but my butt hurt and I couldn't afford my prescriptions , so I had to give that up .


Forum Member : Well man I hope you realize that that insurance program you are talking about is social security disability and tax payers pay for it and if you have been on it for 5 years , you have collected way more than you could have possibly ever have paid in .

Dead Beat SSD Bum: Well its better I get it then some welfare whore , besides my doctor says I may never get better , so I am trying to get permanent disability and if they give it to whores , they can by God give it to me.


These people are the real problem with the system , and their are millions of them abusing the system. I have found lots on line and know a few in person. (Barely I hate a man who could work , but won't . )

And often these people men and women live alone and suck off the system for small aches and pains most of us wake up every day to due to aging . What is really the case is that during some surgery or accident , they became prescription pill addicts and have to stay on social security disability to get their drugs. But they are in for a big fat surprise when Bush passed his prescription drug package for the elderly , he put in clauses against social security and medicaid paying for the addictive drugs like the pain killers these people are hooked on . Come 2010 , they will not be able to get their dope from the social security disability program . Not without having a real physical problem , because the guidelines are tough to get pain meds paid for my tax payer money after 2010 . That is one good thing President Bush has done.


Badmutha Please tell me you are not one of these social security disability bums? ...............Please tell me your not.
You sure do sound like some of the ones I have run into.
Please tell me your not. My faith in humanity is waning

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Well said JKay

And welcome to the forum.

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You really don't get it do you?

War for Oil
War for Freedom
War on Terror

Call it whatever you want to call it. It doesn't change what it is. It's an illegal, blood sucking, money leeching exercise brought on by this administration.

During the reign of Georgie we've seen bankruptcy reform bill (big business win) along with reverse mortgages (big business win), credit cards being passed out, like beer at a fraternity party, while fees are increased (big business win). What would I like to see a responsible president do?

How about repealing the bankruptcy law or revising it. Usury, and responsible lending practices. (citizen win)

Nope, you just don't value your fellow human beings. That is a typical symptom of "conservative compassion"

Again, you are only trying to play the bait and switch game. Who was in charge of FEMA? Oh, it was the horse judge. Appointed by whom? Little Georgie Porgie (R)


I will say it one more time myself. Americans cannot survive this conservative compassion any longer.

That is one of but many reasons Government intervention makes Healthcare unaffordable for the common person. Your at least acknowledging it. Nice to it come from an honest democrats mouth, instead of the same ole trite about Universal Healthcare plans and stuff.

__________________
"It is the Right of the People to alter or abolish the Government"
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"Never trouble another for what you can do for yourself."
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"If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand."
Milton Friedman

I don't see any reason to tighten it further. I works very well the way it is. Of course, your bretheren on the left, want to roll things back to pre-1994...and have been doing yeomanlike work toward that end since....well, let's see...um, 1994.

When you help elect socialists to both the White House and give them a majority in Congress, given that every years since 1994, the socialists have intro'd legislation to roll back welfare reform..um, I'm just curious: what do YOU think will happen?

Able-bodied young men (or wymyn): No, they should not. That's what I said. I did not say they CURRENTLY were. They WILL be once you help put socialists in charge, though (I was referencing pre-1994 conditions where they most assuredly did get welfare...for life, if they wanted, and many did).

Policing: I believe we SHOULD, though. And we should drug-test those on welfare. If you live in subsidized housing, it is not YOUR house, and so you should give up certain rights...there should be Projects Police who can knock on your door at 2 am and demand to see who is sleeping there. If someone is sleeping there who does not have permission, you should be put out on the street.

The "debt": Social programs outlays combined, dwarf military outlays. Have since The Great Society. I don't see that changing anytime soon, do you?

Illegals: it's both a security and a legal problem. It's less a security (national) problem than a legal one. There is not reason to permit these people to stay here. BOTH sides (it was called Bush-KENNEDY, you may recall) are treasonous in this regard and those at the top, as they have colluded with an invading enemy, should be treated as what they are: traitors. This, in my opinion, includes Bush. But it also includes MOST Dems.

Tokie

I agree the VA needs TOTAL revamping. Understand, this is a socialist undertaking started by a socialist, after all...and it has done what socialist orgs. do: failed.

Once again: (and I don't post links--LIIINKKKKSSSSSS!!! Find it yourself) social programs outlays dwarf military outlays and have since sometime in the late 60s, with Great Society plans.

Of course, you want to utterly emasculate the US militarily, while simultaneously destroying our economy from within by taxing "the rich" (identified as "anyone who makes more'n me!") out of existence.

Say, you know...the Reds did that in the old USSR...how'd that work out for 'em?

Tokie

I think you may be misreading this guy, SatV.

Here is what he said: It is the government support for employer healthcare via all sorts of tax subsidies and special legal protections for the corporations and the insurance companies that has done a great deal to make individual policies all but unaffordable to all but the top 10% income earners.

As someone without employer provided healthcare, even with me paying the cost, and as someone without government healthcare, I would love to see the government remove all the subsidies for employer healthcare and pretty much force corporations to drop their group plans. In fact, I think the government should prohibit group healthcare policies force everyone to go to individual plans.

That is the fastest way to single payer healthcare as advocated by Dennis Kucinich.

This approach is designed to FORCE the government to enact a single-payer (socialized) medical system. The "single-payer" being well..you and me as working people, through ever more onerous taxation.

I thought that as a libertarian, you opposed such taxation?

Tokie