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36shadow · #41 (**permalink**) 02-26-2008, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

I just really don't think we have the right to say some does not deserve to live- they are too bad to live, they must die.

I know that many inmates do recieve some mental health treatment and some even are studied (there is a difference between private counseling and professional studying). I just wonder what would happen if we could get doctors to want to spend their time trying to find out why someone would kill or rape or has no conscience. I'm very much into prevention of crime and this could be a very useful tool in preventing crime.

You stretch someones neck and see how much of a preventative it is even to those so called criminals with no so called conscience. They may have no conccience but you can bet your ass they have a high self preservation instinct.

36shadow · #42 (**permalink**) 02-26-2008, 08:46 PM

[quote=wolf_22;321474]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellowjacket

The death penaty is not murder, it is retribution, it is justice. Murder is the crime of killing a person with malice aforethought. Actually keeping them for life is more cost effective than death row, where on average it costs over a million dollars before execution takes place.
there is a big difference between revenge and justice. killing someone is revenge, locking them up is justice

I'm compassionate and sympathetic by nature, but I'm realistic. obviously fixing society will lower crime rate and focusing on rehabilitating youth is more likely to work than fixing older criminals. I wish there was a way to segregate the career criminals from the criminals who want to reform. I have studied things in classes and talked with people who have worked with offenders of all age groups and most agree that if the ones who want to change are put with people who don't, they are easily corupted.

That is something easily fixed DON'T LET THEM SET THERE FOR YEARS ON END IF THEY ARE SENTENCED TO DEATH THEN DO IT LIKE TEXAS DOES.

wolf_22 · #43 (**permalink**) 02-26-2008, 10:31 PM

[quote=36shadow;321495]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

That is something easily fixed DON'T LET THEM SET THERE FOR YEARS ON END IF THEY ARE SENTENCED TO DEATH THEN DO IT LIKE TEXAS DOES.

I don't get what you are talking about- I'm anti-death penalty. plain and simple.

are you arguing that issue with me?

36shadow · #44 (**permalink**) 02-27-2008, 12:15 AM

[quote=wolf_22;321555]

Quote:

Originally Posted by 36shadow

I don't get what you are talking about- I'm anti-death penalty. plain and simple.

are you arguing that issue with me?

So your saying if someone endangered your family you would not shoot and kill that person to protect your family?

Realist1 · #45 (**permalink**) 02-27-2008, 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

there is no need for any political mind-sets on this issue.
we are talking about a hurt child and an adult who committed the crime (yes I'm aware he is only accused at this point but even if he is innocent we know it was an adult who it).

you are intentionally perverting my words- for your own gain- I never said he should get counseling. I said we should study him to figure out why he and other people feel the desire to rape young people and have no moral issue with hurting others.

I'm against the death penalty in theory- but as I said, I won't cry if someone like him dies. I won't pander for it or support it happening though.

I can see your point though- the conservative view of locking people up, not trying to rehibilitate them, not trying to prevent crime, and possibly killing them has worked so well. why stop now?

My Response: I can't see yours though. The Liberal view of releasing Rapists, Murderers, and Thieves back into Society sure the Hell doesn't "Prevent Crime"...

How many times do we have to read about Parole Repeat Crimes?

It ain't me releasing them Wolf,,,

it's Liberals like you doing it.

Yellowjacket · #46 (**permalink**) 02-27-2008, 04:23 PM

Quote:

there is a big difference between revenge and justice. killing someone is revenge, locking them up is justice

A murderer takes away the most basic right of their victim, the right to life. Locking them up, they live on with a warm dry bed, 3 meals a day, free medical, dental and vision care, television, music, a library of books, legal services, daily recreation periods,telephone calls to family and friends, visits from same, social interaction, and free security service to protect them. How is THAT justice?

Quote:

I'm compassionate and sympathetic by nature

So am I. I just reserve my compassion for those who deserve it.

Quote:

rehabilitating youth is more likely to work than fixing older criminals.

Rehabilitation only works for those who want it and commit themselves to change. You cannot force anyone to rehabilitate theirself.

Quote:

I wish there was a way to segregate the career criminals from the criminals who want to reform.

There are lots of ways to segregate. Violent / Nonviolent. First timers / Repeat offenders. Drug history / Non drug history. Gang / Nongang.

Quote:

I have studied things in classes and talked with people who have worked with offenders of all age groups and most agree that if the ones who want to change are put with people who don't, they are easily corupted.

I also have taken courses, plus 25 years experience as a correction officer. For the most part, the "easily corrupted" you refer to, if they don't become corrupted in prison, will still be corrupted again upon release because they lack the commitment to change. Those who truly wish to change will choose their friends carefully while "on the inside".

wolf_22 · #47 (**permalink**) 02-27-2008, 04:57 PM

[quote=36shadow;321622]

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

So your saying if someone endangered your family you would not shoot and kill that person to protect your family?

if it was self/family defense of course.
but once they are in jail- I and everyone outside jail are safe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Realist1

[/b]

My Response: I can't see yours though. The Liberal view of releasing Rapists, Murderers, and Thieves back into Society sure the Hell doesn't "Prevent Crime"...

How many times do we have to read about Parole Repeat Crimes?

It ain't me releasing them Wolf,,,

it's Liberals like you doing it.

that is because prison isn't used for rehabilitation. you can't put a violent person in a violent environment and expect them to be non-violent when they leave. you also can't shove someone back into a society that won't hire them for jobs, accept them as equal to everyone else (they paid their debt), and leave these uneducated people in a situation where crime is the best option for survival.

its society and the system that messes things up. nothing to be with liberals or convervatives. critical criminologist come from all sides of the spectrum.

wolf_22 · #48 (**permalink**) 02-27-2008, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellowjacket

A murderer takes away the most basic right of their victim, the right to life. Locking them up, they live on with a warm dry bed, 3 meals a day, free medical, dental and vision care, television, music, a library of books, legal services, daily recreation periods,telephone calls to family and friends, visits from same, social interaction, and free security service to protect them. How is THAT justice?

how is it justice to say murder is wrong and them kill people? why lower ourselves to the level of criminals.

So am I. I just reserve my compassion for those who deserve it.

Rehabilitation only works for those who want it and commit themselves to change. You cannot force anyone to rehabilitate theirself.
true. but its not offered enough or carried out correctly now

There are lots of ways to segregate. Violent / Nonviolent. First timers / Repeat offenders. Drug history / Non drug history. Gang / Nongang.
generally most prisons do not segregate like that. and they don't keep the people who want to change away from those who don't

I also have taken courses, plus 25 years experience as a correction officer. For the most part, the "easily corrupted" you refer to, if they don't become corrupted in prison, will still be corrupted again upon release because they lack the commitment to change. Those who truly wish to change will choose their friends carefully while "on the inside".

I think its best to give people every chance when they are doing something so hard and tough. a lot of times people turn to crime for protection. its better to be in a gang than have all of the gangs after you. these people need to be kept away from the threat if we expect them to change.

oceanbreeze · #49 (**permalink**) 02-27-2008, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolf_22

I think its best to give people every chance when they are doing something so hard and tough. a lot of times people turn to crime for protection. its better to be in a gang than have all of the gangs after you. these people need to be kept away from the threat if we expect them to change.

Urban Dictionary: bleeding heart

Yellowjacket · #50 (**permalink**) 02-27-2008, 06:32 PM

Quote:

how is it justice to say murder is wrong and them kill people? why lower ourselves to the level of criminals.

Criminals (murderers) decide to appoint themselves as judge of who shall live or die based on personal biases, then carry out the killing for themselves.
A government executes murderers only after extremely stringent due process requirements to include numerous appeals, free legal council and numerous opportunities to show lack of guilt. Notice I did not write "innocence" merely lack of proven guilt. A murderer may have commited the crime, but if the government cannot prove so beyond a reasonable doubt, AND while following rigid legal protocols, the killer walks. While a murderer's victim may be truly innocent, a convicted murderer has been proven not to be. With all this in mind, executions are not murder, but government's prerogative to rid their society from irredeemable evil.

Quote:

Rehabilitation only works for those who want it and commit themselves to change. You cannot force anyone to rehabilitate theirself.
true. but its not offered enough or carried out correctly now

I would differ with you on this one. Prisons offer education and vocational training, social services, alcohol and substance abuse programs, religious services, motivational programs outreach programs, and much more. Some inmates choose not to participate, others participate to "earn points" with absolutely no sincerity about true rehabilitation, and some are truly sincere. Again, you cannot force sincerity.

Quote:

generally most prisons do not segregate like that. and they don't keep the people who want to change away from those who don't

The concept looks good on paper, but in practise it's not always that simple. I would invite you to apply for a job as a correction officer, preferably in a maximum or close security prison. Work there as an officer for a year, then see if any of your opinions have changed. Try being spit on, having urine and feces thrown at you, being assaulted, being verbally abused and facing the occasional inmate armed with a weapon while you have none. Do all this while maintaining your professionalism, doing your duty without bias, and having your every move recorded on tape or scrutinized by investigation panels. Bear in mind that the inmate who threw shit at you or tried to stab you still must be given all the amenities that his status accords him and tomorrow, it will be your job to provide those things in a professional, unbiased manner.